Ep. 135 Lindsey Fetters Podcast Transcript

Steve Martorano 
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and well-being. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around a while. 

Steve Martorano 
Hi, everybody, welcome to the Behavioral Corner. It's me again, Steve Martorano. Gee, I hope you're taking note of this. We've been here a couple of years now hanging on the Corner, which of course, is our metaphor for where we gather and bump into, by pure accident, some interesting people who we think have some great stories that celebrate information and report about the way we live, the decisions we make about behavioral health. Everything affects behavioral health. So "everything" is what we talk about here on the Behavioral Corner. Before we get to our guest, just a reminder here as the year comes to an end, I hope the holidays have been good to you all. And their tight grip on us is lessening, as we look ahead into the new year. And in any event, do me this favor for my sort of holiday thing. When you find us look for our homepage where it says subscription and push that button. It would make my day I would appreciate that very much. Frequently. We have over the years when we talk about behavioral health and substance abuse and emotional issues. We often find ourselves mired down in tough stories about difficult topics. And we've got to remind ourselves that there are success stories multiple times across multiple areas. With regards specifically to substance abuse: People get better. We got to remind ourselves of that. They get better...they get better in the millions. It's one of the great -- we don't talk about enough little secrets about sobriety. Millions of people are living in long-term, successful sobriety. We occasionally during the year reach out to someone who's an example of that so that we can remind you it's possible. To that end, we welcome our guest Lindsay Fetters. Hi, Lindsay, welcome to the Behavioral Corner.

Lindsay Fetters 
Hi, thank you for having me.

Steve Martorano 
You didn't expect to bump into us as you were walking around today, did you?

Lindsay Fetters 
Nope, nope. Total surprise.

Steve Martorano 
Do you believe I persist in that nonsense that there's a Corner here that we're hanging on? Anyway, Lindsay, thanks so much for joining us. I think I pretty much characterize what we're going to talk to you about. I will begin by pointing out that Lindsay has struggled with substance abuse in the past is now approaching nine years of sobriety -- which is a success by anybody's measure. So congratulations. So let's begin by telling us a little about yourself, where did you grow up? And what was the family like?

Lindsay Fetters 
So I grew up outside Philadelphia and in the suburbs. I'm the third of four kids. My brother and I are like five and six years younger than my sisters who became our subsequent parents. And my dad was an alcoholic. So I grew up knowing that rehabs exist and that alcoholism existed. I don't think I knew what it was. But yeah, I mean, I had a pretty suburban, early childhood. But I think I always knew, or I always felt like there was something I wasn't like everybody else, especially my family, it seemed like everybody could be, could really enjoy each other. And that was just not who I was. I always felt on the outside of my family.

Steve Martorano 
I want to explore that a little later be there are commonalities in stories like yours. I like to say and have done so many times, that all stories of substance abuse and recovery are the same, except they're different. And one of the things that's similar is when you talk about "I didn't fit" this vague notion of an unease. Something's wrong here. Before we go. Much further, you say your father was an alcoholic? Was that something you understood the family unsure? Or was he in, you know, in AA, and in and out.

Lindsay Fetters 
He was in and out. He didn't get sober until about 10. But, you know, I have vivid memories of going and visiting him at Karen. I definitely knew he was an alcoholic, and I definitely knew he should not be drinking. But some of my earliest memories are about like, feeling like I could have done more to help him to stop drinking if I would have let him know I knew, which is a lot of stuff that I carried for a long time. Obviously now in recovery. I understand that. This just nonsense, but that's what I felt for a long time. So we definitely were aware. But he was a nice drunk, so it wasn't really upsetting when he was drinking because he was very uncomfortable when he was sober. But I remember going to AA meetings with him when he was sober and thinking, I am not going to end up here, like, I am not going to end up in these circles.

Steve Martorano 
It's another common thing. But for some people go to a meeting, their first overwhelming thought is, yeah, well, I don't, I don't have anything in common with these people. So I get that. How old? were you when you went to the AA meetings with dad?

Lindsay Fetters 
I mean, I had to be below seven. So I mean, young.

Steve Martorano 
Oh, you were very young?

Lindsay Fetters 
Very young. And I remember thinking alcoholism seemed like, not like a secret in our family, because we were very open. But it seemed like a shameful thing. It seemed like, it seemed like something that kind of was like a failing, you know, that we are different. Nobody else's parents are like that, you know, that's just was my perception that everything was about, you know...

Steve Martorano 
You know, I'm interested, I don't believe I've had talked to anybody whose family or personally went to AA meetings and brought their young children. Was that common? Is it's just a function of well, there's nobody to watch the kids that spring into the meeting? How's that work?

Lindsay Fetters 
So I don't really know. I mean, my mom was around a lot. I don't really know why I would have gone to meetings with my dad. I think he was drinking way more than he was sober. So I don't think it probably happened a lot. I mean, but I do remember. And I, it was it's possible. They could have been family meetings like my mom could have been there. I remember sitting next to my dad and chairs. But again, I was a little kid. So my perception could be very off. But I knew I didn't want to do this. I was not going to...

Steve Martorano 
First of all, your dad still with us?

Lindsay Fetters 
No, he passed away from cancer almost two years ago.

Steve Martorano 
Sorry to hear that. How did he...did he ultimately get sober?

Lindsay Fetters 
He did. He was sober for 25 years.

Steve Martorano 
Wow. Okay. So a couple of things seem to be a family pattern in your in your life. Maybe you learned or inherited alcoholism. Who knows?. But you also either learned or inherited recovery, which is very cool. Let me ask you when your problems began and what shape did they take.

Lindsay Fetters 
So my dad left when I was seven and just never came back. I didn't see him again till I was 16. So there was definitely this like hole. But I mean, I'm somebody who believes I was born an alcoholic, I think I was probably an alcoholic from the moment I existed. So I don't know I have these memories of, like, even before took my first drink of wanting to play house and be like in trouble, you know, like drinking and smoking and being in at attention, which is such a strange thing, looking back, but I wanted to drink, I wanted to be grown up. And I thought that that's what drinking was. I took my first drink when I was 10. And I took it alone. And that really is something that really kind of filtered its way through my entire story that like I prefer to be alone. Like I prefer to drink alone. I felt safer. 100%. So as soon as I took the first drink, I just stole stuff from my mom who wasn't a big drinker at all. That was very much something that like I knew I wanted to do. And I knew that I had to keep doing so I don't know how often I was drinking at that age. But by the time I got to middle school, I met people who also wanted to drink and we were drinking often. And anything that you put in front of us we would do you know. So that was...

Steve Martorano 
That's another pattern. That's another pattern that constantly emerges. Yeah. There's something ironic about the fact that you say you began drinking because it helped you isolate. 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
And then when you got a little older, you looked for a community of like-minded people. 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
That happens a lot. Do you think that's a way for the alcoholic to... Is "alcoholic" still a proper term? 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
Do you think this, this drifting into the social circle, that's abusing alcohol, is a way of normalizing it? 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
So you don't look...you don't look different than everybody else?

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah, like it definitely...it you can justify for a lot longer. You're using, and you can also. I mean, at least I did, I also could always find somebody worse than me. So that was something that I mean, I guess until I couldn't, but like it was something that I kind of held on to like, well, they're worse than either...

Steve Martorano 
That's a great insight. I mean, you may suspect that you're hitting it too hard. But as long as you know "Bob" is killing it, then you can't be that bad. Or you still, even after all these years of sobriety, amaze yourself with the lies you told yourself. And that trick you played to normalize your behavior?

Lindsay Fetters 
I mean, that's one of the things that with more sustained recovery, that I realized that there's a lot of old lies that I've held on to that have justified like character defects that were actually just kind of residual from my early years of drinking and using. You know, like, the way I could justify my drinking and use is the same way I can justify holding on to those character defects. It always like plays into itself. Once I'm in enough pain, eventually, I'll do something that's something I do in sobriety, you know, but I was a master. I lied to myself because alcohol was definitely not my problem. It was my solution to everything.

Steve Martorano 
So we're talking to Lindsay Fetters, she joins us as a voice in recovery because we began by telling you she is now nine years sober, her story is very familiar with people who have been there and done that. And you know what? Sometimes I wonder, when we do these shows, any of these shows who's listening and who's watching. Certainly people in active use, I don't believe in general, are scouring the internet, looking for stuff like this. And maybe they stumbled across this. But I think it's people who are in the beginning stages of recovery or have relapsed and are trying to get back . More generally, I think their family members. I really think there are people that are struggling because it's in their lives. Maybe they're not users. Now your dad was gone for the bulk of your using. Mom must have been heartbroken...

Lindsay Fetters 
Yes, I think she was but part of my, or a lot of my story, was doing enough so that nobody really intervened. I think my mom was but by the time we got to, I was maybe an eighth...ninth grade when my brother was an eighth. He had started using as well. And very quickly, his drug use took the forefront, which was awesome for somebody like me, because then nobody looked at me for quite a few years because he was worse than I was. So I thought that was great in many aspects. I also thought it was really horrible that I felt like he stole all my friends. And all of a sudden, he was cooler than I was, and nobody wanted to hang out. I mean, again, this is probably all perception. But, you know, we hung out in the same circles, but very quickly, he kind of since his addiction took over it. It really allowed mine to just kind of be on the back burner.

Steve Martorano 
Wow, doesn't surprise me a little bit. Sibling rivalry extends far beyond. You know, I mean, listen to your story. It's not, you know, it's very common to go, "Oh, he's such a show-off. And he gets all the attention. And he's an athlete." 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
Now, you're sitting there going, "You stole my addiction. You stole my thing. I'm the one out of control. What are you getting your the..." It's an amazing, an amazing dynamic.

Lindsay Fetters 
When I was in high school, there was a huge influx of heroin in my high school, that was something that was very much prevalent. And I realized very quickly that if you start doing heroin, you start being an IV user, and you end up in treatment. And I was never going to be that person who ended up in treatment. So that was my constant thing myself, like, just don't do it. Don't be using IV drugs because then you'll end up in treatment. But I just kind of started down this path that I wanted everyone to focus on him because then I could continue to drink and use and at that point, I had also had a super active eating disorder. So I could kind of unravel, but I also didn't want anyone to look at me. So I always did things just enough. So I just enough past school, and I just enough was involved, and I just enough had teachers like me, so I never really got in trouble. So I could bring water bottles of vodka to school, you know like I was like this kind...

Steve Martorano 
Oh, it was like that, huh?

Lindsay Fetters 
It was just enough that nobody would look towards me because I wasn't the worst. And I could keep doing exactly what I was doing. And which was just master manipulation. You know, like, if nobody looked at me, then I could just continue to self-destruct. But I think for a while, I really did believe the lie that when things stopped being hard, you know, whatever that was, you know, if when a guy finally liked me, or when I got into the school I wanted to get into or when I got this, you know, on this team or in this play or did whatever then I would stop drinking the way I was drinking because then things would be the way I wanted them to be, you know, I kept pushing that back, you know?

Steve Martorano 
The bargaining goes on, and you keep pushing the goalposts further back so that it never stops. The other cruel irony is the fact that folks like you who are inactive use and can maintain a kind enough equilibrium to not get jammed up. That's on the one hand of us seem great. Look, I'm not getting in trouble. On the other hand, it's getting worse and worse because you're good at it. 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
You don't want to be good at abusing alcohol right?

Lindsay Fetters 
No.

Steve Martorano 
And you were?

Lindsay Fetters 
Yes. 

Steve Martorano 
When did you stop being good at it? By that, I mean, how did you get sober? What happens?

Lindsay Fetters 
I had gone to nursing school, but I couldn't make it through it. I mean, I went to nine or seven colleges, probably, you know, six or something. I never got a degree, kept trying to get my RN, but I was, I really couldn't keep it together for more than a year. That was basically that's all I ever had, I would have to change a job or change a school after a year because everybody would catch on. I ended up getting my LPN license, which is a nursing license in, in Pennsylvania. And by that time, my brother had gotten sober. My dad had been gotten...gotten sober. And I think at that point, my brother had come back up or lived in Pennsylvania, and he was friends with everybody that was like young AA people, you know, and, and it pissed me off. And I just started to isolate from the family. He was really like, you know, you're pushing everything under the rug. And he was kind of, for years, trying to get me sober. But it wasn't until at 27 I started having or sometime in that year, that last year, I started having seizures pretty often, a lot of DTs, I was really...my kidneys were not working very well. I had to drink or use benzos to get through the day, and I...I was a nurse. So I ended up having a seizure at work. And I manipulated my mom to not tell anybody in the family, and I kept using for a couple more months. And then it really just, I think, finally, it became so unmanageable, you know, I was hallucinating all the time. I don't know if anyone's familiar with, uh, with alcohol withdrawal, any amount of withdrawal from alcohol, where it really does elicit a lot of DTs and which are delirium tremors, so everything from hallucinations, seizures. And that was really scaring me, but obviously went on for about a year. And one day, my brother and sister-in-law were both working at the Retreat. I had actually worked there a year previous but had lost my job through a series of events. And I just remember calling my sister-in-law, I guess, probably a month before I did that, the family found out that I had a seizure and had to end up in the hospital from work and, and I told my brother and sister-in-law that I was going to stop, I didn't know that I need to go to treatment, I would just go to IOP. PHP and they were like, sure, you know, I don't...I didn't realize at that time what they were doing now. Of course, I do. But they're like, Yeah, you try it your way you try to get sober the way you think you can get sober. And I remember going to IOP once doing, like the admission, you know, whatever, and never went back, and I just lied for weeks, months, whatever. And finally, one day I was at work getting ready for surgery. And I knew I was going to have another seizure, and I just quit my job. Was like, I can't do this anymore. And I called everybody that I had met in the last several months when people started to find out that I was having seizures, people wanted to help a lot of the people in the recovery community started trying to take me to meetings. So I just kind of wanted to help, and then my brother, of course, and sister-in-law came to the rescue yet again. And they were...my brother was like, What about going to the Retreat? And I was like, I absolutely cannot go to the Retreat. I work there, everybody will know. And like they didn't already. And finally, I don't even know how it happened. But I ended up at the Retreat. I ended up getting so worth the Retreat, and my old boss drove me in. And it was the best experience I could have possibly had. Because I needed to break that down, that thing where I created such lies for myself constantly about how I was...I had it all together. And finally, I had to just say, No, this is like who I am. And I had a really horrible detox. There was a lot of time, I just don't remember in treatment, but everybody allowed me to be who I was. And if there was judgment, I really don't...didn't see it. And it was a really powerful experience to be back.

Steve Martorano 
You think in a sense, it was helpful that you went back to a place where you used to work and they knew you so that you could begin peeling away the lies immediately? I mean, a different place where they didn't know you could be anonymous. So do you think you think it was better that you were in front of people who knew you?

Lindsay Fetters 
100%, and it was better than my brother was there, my sister-in-law, and I remember, I mean, I think of my experience, I had an unbelievable therapist, and I, you know, people just kept saying, like, "This is who you are. And this is what you need to do." I remember saying, I'm not going to go to aftercare, and they're like, oh, no, no, that's, that's not an option. Let's stop acting like you have a choice. And that was incredibly powerful to break down so much of the lies that I could have continued to tell myself because at that point, I knew, you know?

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I mean, you know, they talked about the bottom...getting to the bottom and all of that. And one of the things about serious substance abuse is that when, you know, something like your kidneys begins failing you where seizures overwhelm you, it tends to focus the attention. You can lie a lot of things away. You can't lie away a seizure. So that was eight, nine years ago. Right? And have you relapsed at all at any point during...

Lindsay Fetters 
I have not. I've been sober...yeah, I mean, not only did I go to the Retreat, and I stayed around there and went to, you know, PHP than IOP, a lot of orchestration by my brother and sister-in-law, who really helped to insulate me. I had some challenges that first year, a lot of really sick behavior, but I never picked up a drink again.

Steve Martorano 
That's fantastic. 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
It's fantastic. I'm curious about the nursing profession. It's interesting. You apparently decided you'd like to be a nurse early at an early age, and you know, nursing staff. It's about taking care of other people in there. You were a wreck. 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
How does that happen? How does it come about that you can't take care of yourself, but you're interested to take care of other people?

Lindsay Fetters 
I think it's easier to take care of other people. Yeah, I actually think I mean, that's kind of been something that in sobriety, I've had to learn that. It's not...it's not enough to maintain my mind, my emotional sobriety to be a good mom and a good wife and a good friends and a good sister, and a good daughter. Like that all is great. But if I'm not taking care of myself, and maintaining my program, I'm really only going to be able to do those things for a little bit of time until I get resentful. And when I was a nurse, and using, I really could only stay at a job for a year because I could only maintain this illusion for a bit of time. And then...

Steve Martorano 
Were you getting a drug from illicitly from work?

Lindsay Fetters 
I wasn't. I wasn't. I actually was a one of those pretty chronic, like, people that went to lots of urgent cares. I don't know, eight years...eight years ago, nine years ago, it was much easier to kind of urgent care hop, for benzos, you know, so there was a lot of just kind of weird behavior that I was doing. But again, that was part of the things that kept me sick that I was like, I'm not stealing from work. So, therefore, I don't have a problem because I'm not stealing drugs from work.

Steve Martorano 
Another...another cruel irony. 

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
I have access to all these drugs, but I won't steal them so I can continue to screw my life up. Yeah. By the way, have you...were you aware of and able to watch the television series, Nurse Jackie?

Lindsay Fetters 
Yes. I did watch it. I don't think I've finished watching that show. But yes, I really liked that show. It...

Steve Martorano 
There was no trigger, no triggering problems or any of that?

Lindsay Fetters 
No, honestly, the kind of things that that are always about, like the real depth of using don't really make me...they make me feel grateful. Sometimes that little bit of, I don't know, nostalgic, whatever, but I don't know, I'm pretty... No, no triggering.

Steve Martorano 
Good for you. Oh, here we are, I think this program will be up on the Behavioral Corner website before the end of the year. In fact, I'm certain it will. So congratulations, as I say, another year of sobriety. That's great. You're going to have a decade before you know it. It's terrific. Let me leave you with this question. First of all the families are all great. You know, you and your husband together, you've got how many children you have? If you have kids.

Lindsay Fetters 
Yes, we have four kids. Yeah, we have a 17-year-old, a 15...oh, God, he just turned 18. 18-year-old, a 15-year-old, a six-year-old and a three-year-old. So my husband, when I met him, I prayed for my whole life for a big family. And when I met him, he had these two lovely children. And I probably fell in love with them at the same time I was falling in love with him.

Steve Martorano 
Oh, terrific. That's terrific. You're successful in every...every way. But most people want to be successful. You look healthy. You thought you were sober. You got a terrific family. Love your husband. It's great. Sounds great. And you had this episode in your life years ago where you almost died.

Lindsay Fetters 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
And it's gone. Do you find yourself in a position where you think it might be better just to put that behind you? Like a big memory and move on? Or do you think it's important for you to constantly remind yourself of where you were?

Lindsay Fetters 
I definitely think it's important to remind myself all the time, wake up in the morning and remember, I'm an alcoholic. I think every morning when I wake up, I remember so fundamentally that I'm an alcoholic because my character defects scream at me until I start to get into action in the day. For me, that's like running, connecting to God. But if I don't remember, every day, if I don't do things that help myself every day, it's a slow process. But it happens way faster than you would think I start blaming, you know, I'm madly in love with my husband, and I can start being like, you know what, he's the problem. You know what? My kids are the problem. You know what, I don't need to do this. And if I'm not aware, those little resentments become something big. and it makes me really uncomfortable. So I might not pick up a drink, but I'm definitely going to be miserable. And my family is going to be miserable. And I'm not going to be connected to my husband. And so, like, I have to remember, and I hope I never forget, that first and foremost, I'm an alcoholic, and I have to treat this condition spiritually. You know, like, and I have to be connected because everything I got is because of the work that I put in. And it's not always easy, you know, like, you can go through a little bit of period of time where, you know, I'm not going to as many meetings when I'm talking to people in the program, and I start thinking, it's got a lot of good ideas. You know, and then things are really painful. And most of the time, it shows up in my house. You know, I start being quite frustrated with everybody in this house, and I'm just not good. So I think it's really important to remember all the time.

Steve Martorano 
Never forget. Yeah, well, you know what, if never forgetting results in your success, then terrific. You're doing it right, Lindsey Fetters. Thanks for joining us. We'd love to have you back. At some point, maybe when we do our television review program, we can do Nurse Jackie, and you can be a critic for us. Happy New Year. We'll be back on the other side another year. Let's hope for us what it is. 23 - 2023? Good Lord is better. See you then. Bye bye. 

Lindsay Fetters 
All right, thank you.

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