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Ep. 11 - Kathryn Thomas
Aug 09, 2020
How do you go from hunting submarines as a Navy helicopter pilot to instructing prison inmates in yoga? It’s an interesting story alright and our guest Kathryn Thomas shares it with us this time on BehavioralCorner.
It’s “All hands on deck “ on the Corner. Come join us.
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Kathryn Thomas is the Executive Director of
Yoga 4 Change
as well as the CEO of ANAMAR Environmental Consulting, Inc. After being medically separated from the United States Navy in which she served as a Naval Aviator, she began studying to become a Yoga teacher through the Yoga School of Kailua. Upon moving to Jacksonville, Florida, she witnessed the need for mental, emotional, and physical healing in her new community and started Yoga 4 Change to fill this void. Kathryn has training in multiple disciplines including Power Yoga, Chair Yoga, Hatha Yoga, and Yoga Nidra. She is a 500 E-RYT as well as a Certified Baptiste Teacher. Kathryn formerly sat on the board of the Yoga Service Council, where she served as the project manager and contributed to two of the Best Practice Book Series: Yoga with Veterans, and Yoga in the Criminal Justice System. In her new role as the CEO of ANAMAR, Kathryn is focusing on the business development of the company, while taking the administrative duties off the shoulders of the technical staff. She started this role late in 2017, and is excited to expand the companies reach in the coming year. Kathryn resides in Florida with her husband, daughter and their 2 Labrador Retrievers.
Yoga 4 Change is built on an established, purpose-driven curriculum that pairs yoga movements with thematic teachings tailored to the physical and emotional needs of each population we serve. Our professionally-trained instructors go directly to the source, introducing yoga and mindfulness as powerful tools for overcoming trauma.
Our highly-trained instructors are encouraged to assess each situation and teach according to the needs of the individuals in each class. This approach allows us to better connect with the four diverse populations we work with. We believe that empowered instructors create empowered students and lasting change.
We have implemented Yoga 4 Change in more than 80 facilities throughout five counties since 2014. Participants are able to work through, and release their negative emotions, as they learn to calm mind and body, find inner strength, and master their breathing. Each class includes a therapeutic writing component based on relevant themes, giving participants the ability to document, confront, and openly discuss their feelings. We are a results-driven organization motivated by the change we see in our students.
Follow Yoga 4 Change
Twitter -
https://twitter.com/yoga_4_change
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZpwrT1k2hEuHwZwqmh7t2g
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/y4c_soflo/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/yoga4changeJax/
Ep. 11 - Kathryn Thomas Interview Transcript
The Behavioral Corner
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner, you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while.
Steve Martorano
Okay, so I thought maybe we do a word association as we hang here on the corner, this time out on the Behavioral Corner. And the word I'm going to throw at you and you tell me the first thing that pops into your mind. If I say yoga, I bet you say downward-facing dog, or yoga pants or something. That's the probably sum total of my knowledge of yoga. Yoga has been around for forever, literally, it's older than the dirt. There are mentions of the practice of yoga in ancient texts. tape back to 3000 BC. So anything that's endured that long, must be on to something. So we thought we'd find out as much as we could about yoga, its traditions, its benefits, and how it's being applied right now by our guests, which is what's really interesting about the topic of yoga here on the corner. Kathryn Thomas is the executive director of a group called Yoga 4 Change. And we'll find out the nuts and bolts about that organization, and what she can tell us about what they're doing some exciting stuff coming out of that group. But first, we're going to get to know Kathryn and we're going to get to find out what she knows about yoga. Kathryn, thanks for hanging with us on the corner.
Kathryn Thomas
Oh my gosh, thank you for inviting me. I'm honored to be hanging out today.
Steve Martorano
Well, this you know, this again, means that pretty much the thumbnail dopey guy, the notion of yoga, he knows a couple of things about it. He sees people stretching in the gym. They think of it purely as an exercise, correct?
Kathryn Thomas
Yeah, I wouldn't go far as saying, when I say the word yoga, you probably think, some beautiful person that's extremely flexible on a beach, you know, and that's really what I thought yoga was when I first started to...
Steve Martorano
...thanks for bringing that up. I didn't want to do that and be accused of all that stuff. But you're absolutely right. The best thing to do is the yoga pants thing. Let's talk about you first because you got a great backstory. Tell us about you.
Kathryn Thomas
Thanks. Like, as you said, my name is Kathryn and I saw a helicopter demonstration of my dad ship when I was 11 and decided at that point that I wanted to fly helicopters for the Navy So fast forward, went to college, got an ROTC scholarship, went to flight school, earned my Wings of Gold and flew helicopters, which was a dream come true. On deployments, I suffered an injury and was medically initially medically retired and then subsequently medically separated from the Navy due to my injury because I lost feeling in my left leg Really, a really active person prior to my injury. And then after I was hurt, I became sedentarily lost, you know, the feeling and the left leg couldn't walk. And so my physical therapist said, you really should try something, you're getting super depressed, right? You're putting out a lot of weight. So let's try something, why don't you try yoga. And at that point, if they told me I had to jump 25 times in my left foot every day, you know, to fly helicopters, again, I would have done anything. So I started a yoga class just to try to increase some mobility in my joints that had gotten pretty stiff. And I realized that on my yoga mat, it didn't matter what was going on in my everyday life for whatever pain I was in, I could still achieve. So after doing yoga for a couple of months, I decided, you know, I'm still on temporary limited active duty. At this time, I'm going to do a yoga teacher training. And so while going through my teacher training really allowed me to see just how yoga had impacted my own life. But really part of that teacher training was teaching yoga in prison. So walking into a prison and then teaching yoga, I really found that individuals who are incarcerated, you know, maybe their life didn't really turn out the way they expected, right. And on our yoga mats, there was more connection between, you know, physical pain or not achieving goals that we had wanted to achieve. So that's really what brought me into teaching yoga. And then my husband moved, he's in the Reserves now, but he was actually at the time. He also helicopter pilot, he moved to Florida, and then I founded the organization just because it had really helped me in my own physical healing and mental healing and emotional healing. But really, I wanted to expand that into the populations in the north quarter region. So that's sort of the history of why I started practicing, kind of against my will to be honest with you, but I'm grateful for the suggestion because it really it saved my life. Long story short.
Steve Martorano
Really, it's it sounds like a pretty standard path to yoga, I mean, helicopter pilot to yoga instructor. That's amazing. The helicopter thing fascinates me. I mean, first of all, it sounds like your military family. Right? You said your dad shipped you mean your dad's in the service?
Kathryn Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.
Steve Martorano
How are you see you see a helicopter demonstration? What was he on a carrier something?
Kathryn Thomas
No, he was the executive officer on the ship. And so they have these things called Tiger cruises. And although I wasn't able to stay overnight, obviously because I'm a female and Tiger cruises are usually for you know, boys and men to stay overnight. Just because of the operations of the ship. I was able with my mom to go on during the day and see this helicopter demonstration. And yeah, I do come from a very military family. My dad was in the military. My brother was in the military. My grandfather was in the military. My husband is in the Reserves. Currently. His brother is still active duty. His father was in the military. So We really have a strong tie to the military and serving our country. And I believe that is that example. And my dad, my dad is an example of somebody who gave a lot back to the country. I think that's really sort of that really allowed me to see where I could give back in areas maybe that I didn't think I could kind of thing. And that really set me up for success now in the military, but really, in my whole life, being able to start this organization and then be able to expand it and scale. I mean, a yoga nonprofit is it's a testament to my parents, I think, and my family.
Steve Martorano
It's, it's nicely put. Where were you deployed when you were you were injured?
Kathryn Thomas
We were in Europe. We were doing some ballistic missile defense. And so I was on the USS Monterey, which is a cruiser and I was attached to the Helicopter Squadron 48. We were flying Bravoes at the time.
Steve Martorano
Is that the type of helicopter?
Kathryn Thomas
It's like a Black Hawk, the movie The Black Hawk Down if you will. Yeah, one of those types of there you go down.
Steve Martorano
You flew one of those?!?
Kathryn Thomas
Yes, that's what I flew. But we didn't hunt. We weren't really over the overland operation. So we were hunting submarine. So think like Hunter, the Red October kind of thing.
Steve Martorano
No kidding. Listen, you could come back and just talk about this one day. Just a couple more things about helicopters. But yeah, I have a relative who flies for United Airlines. In fact, he's an instructor as well. And he's, he said to me, you know, he flies these big commercial airliners. And he said, Yeah, but it's not like a helicopter. I don't know what I don't know how they're flying those damn things.
Kathryn Thomas
Well, it's funny, because in our aerodynamics book that we studied, there's a line and it may have been changed by now, but it said, you know, helicopters have the aerodynamic capabilities of a brick.
Steve Martorano
Yeah, right. Right.
Kathryn Thomas
So I mean, if the rotor stops turning, you're gonna fall from the sky, but it's what When I was going through flight school, I didn't like aerodynamic I didn't like ups and barrel rolls, airline rolls. All that fishtails and stuff I really liked. I wanted to fly helicopters I wanted to little hover, I wanted to go backward and sideways and, and be really very specific. It was really great that I was specific in what I wanted my goals to be which once you go into the Navy, truly the sky's the limit, right like fly jets, you can fly P-3s is you can fly P-8s now that you know Bravo's helicopters carry operations and it just that's just flying for the Navy that's not taking into account the submarine warfare the surface, you know, Surface Warfare component or it or supply. I mean, there are so many different opportunities in the military and I truly believe they create the best leaders my own personal opinion. I mean, you have to, you know, go through schooling and you're exposed to a lot of awesome leadership and then a lot of other leaders that you learn from too, so it was a great opportunity. Yeah, and I wouldn't have changed it when you were active duty.
Steve Martorano
When you were active duty were there many other women who were flying helicopters?
Kathryn Thomas
In my Squadron at the time. Yes, there are other females. But on my deployment, I was the only one. I think that probably the same now maybe a little bit more diverse and gender. But I truly would say that at the time that I was in the service, which is about, you know, 2011 / 2012 wasn't very common to have female helicopter pilots. But it means, it was, you know, you had one or two here or there, but I believe that what we're doing now and the quality that is being able to be achieved now is a lot better than potentially back then. And that's even, you know, 10 years after tail hook. Yeah, really far away.
Steve Martorano
So just the last, the last helicopter question, I promise. Yeah. Just because I'm so fascinated. You fly now you get the chance to fly helicopters now, privately?
Kathryn Thomas
No, I do have quite a few ratings. But after I flew, I mean, my last flight in the Navy. I didn't know the last flight I didn't really leave the service the way I dreamed of leaving the service. But my last flight was over a very like a glass ocean where there are purples and blues and greens and once you fly a perfect flight, and then you're basically told you can't fly for the Navy again, in all honesty, I don't have any calling really to fly anymore. My husband and I joke, as I said, He's still a pilot he jokes that he'll take me up one day after you know, and then we'll go flying together in a Cessna or something small but truly right now there's no calling or there's not like a wish or need to fly. But I don't want to say that it won't change the future.
Steve Martorano
That's good. Yeah, I can imagine you hardly have the time given what you've been up to. Since your military service. We will get into Yoga 4 Change. But let's help me out with yoga a little bit. I mean, I'm an old former hippie. So I guess my first exposure to any of it was when the Beatles went to India I think I don't even know that they were talking about yoga. But it all seemed to fit together. I mean, most of us here in the West, kind of experienced it that way culturally rather than as a real, real discipline. It's a very ancient one, though, and it is rooted in a philosophical on a philosophical basis, isn't it?
Kathryn Thomas
Yes, there's a lot of different I mean, yoga, like you talked about the path and show is very is an old old traditional practice. And I think when we as a United States and where we're living now when we hear about it, we think of it more of like a physical act of practice, but there's also a mental component and The goal is to basically get your body and mind united so Yoga means union so your union is between your mind and your body. A simple expanded explanation for me when I teach is, you know when I walk my dog, I could either be fully invested in paying attention and present if you will. Walking my dogs or I could be on my phone or I could be, you know, scrolling or whatever, and not really paying attention to the walking my dogs. Or even I mean, sometimes when people drive right you get home, you're like, Holy moly, how did I even get here? You know, that is not having a union between mind and body right. But you know, that is a teaches us to sort of be more present in our bodies and not really thinking a lot, you know, to be really focused on what we're doing this at this moment in this breath.
Steve Martorano
You know, this is a great example I've experienced that, you know, how did I get here because, you know, you're operating on an automatic basis so often in your life that you can easily disassociate from, from the moment or the surroundings with regard to the union - those two things, why is it important to have more harmony between your body in your mind? I mean, you didn't get home, right? Did you drove home?
Kathryn Thomas
Yeah, right. Hopefully, you didn't you know run anybody?
Steve Martorano
So what's the what are the benefits of this union of the body in mind?
Kathryn Thomas
When I'm in a conversation, like, let's just say, a conversation, my partner and he, and he tells me about his day. And then my next question, you know, is like, oh, how is your day? Right? And he tells me, and then I, and then the next question like, Oh, yeah, so how would you do today kind of thing? What that's demonstrating is that I don't find what he's saying, to be as important of whatever else is going on, right, either on my phone or on the TV or in my own brain. Why is important and what we try to teach, you know, through our program is to be more active in our own life to choose to, to fully commit to this moment thinking and not worrying about the past or stressing about the future, but really just being present in the moment that allows us as individuals, to be better right now as opposed to missing out on Either a conversation or, you know, a potential cue or something that maybe somebody is not saying because I know when I'm listening, my husband and I continually ask them, you know, how's your day where you say, and I'm not listening to him he is he's gonna check out right? He knows they're not listening. So you could say whatever you want. But in a relationship, I think it's really important. And that's one of our curriculum components is active listening, without trying to think of what I'm going to say back to the person, I'm just answering their questions, and speaking to them and not worrying about what other happened either yesterday or what I'm going to do tomorrow.
Steve Martorano
Active listening is an interesting concept. Somebody who does interviews, for instance, as I have done, has to constantly remind myself that I'm supposed to be listening and not worrying about what my next question is, even though I have to. And I've told people who do interviews, that some of the difficulty of being the interviewee is that you're trying to answer a question while thinking about whether the answer makes sense. And what am I going to say next, and you just lose the moment, you're somewhere else, and missing what's going on there. So it's a, there are so many things fascinating about this, that go well beyond yoga things that we can, we can incorporate into our lives, in general. Tell us about Yoga 4 Change and how that came to be
Kathryn Thomas
I found the organization in 2014 like I said because I wanted to continue what had really been serving me and helping me in my own healing. I had a pretty severe physical injury, but I hadn't really dealt with some traumatic incidences that had happened to me prior to that injury. So what I ended up doing was sort of looping everything in together, which caused my physical pain to increase and sort of cover my mental-emotional pain. And so when I started Yoga 4 Change, and this all makes sense in a second Hang on, when I started you ever change. I was trying to offer this practice that it really helped me quite a bit. And I really dove into creating a curriculum that would allow individuals who are in incarcerated individuals, who are veterans, youth and people who are struggling in the recovery realm, and eventually with individuals who have mental health challenges, find ways and tools to help them in their everyday life. And the organization initially was just me and my husband, my father. And I thought that this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. But anybody who knows anything about nonprofits or has donated to nonprofits, or you know, working for nonprofits knows that husband, wife and father team is really not sustainable. Nor is it this, that's a Family Foundation. So people usually don't donate to those organizations and be it that we live in Florida. People weren't really keen on donating to give incarcerated men yoga, right. So there was a lot of what I thought was going to happen really didn't, you know, my expectations really didn't come to flourish and really at all, and so I had to get another surgery, which had me on bed rest for a couple of months, and so I had to give away all these classes that I had, I had basically started and then when I got off bed rest, the teachers that I had brought in, refused to give me those classes back because they really found healing and they saw my vision and told me to get my own classes. So fast forward six years -- were six years old. We currently operate in North Florida, in South Florida, in Tampa Bay, and in Central Florida. So we've been able to scale the organization with six employees 44 plus contractors, a board of directors, and we've been able to really show the impact of yoga because do you run or do you do exercise or...?
Steve Martorano
I did, I did before they closed the gym. And now I'm freaking out. One of the things I look forward to talking to you about is what can I do at home? Because I'd been interested in yoga for a while just because I 'd like to be more flexible and not so creaky anymore. But anyway, yeah, I used to exercise pretty religiously, but not anymore.
Kathryn Thomas
Well, why did you exercise?
Steve Martorano
I felt better. I felt like I needed to keep moving. Because listen, I've done this for so many years sitting in front of a microphone. It's, it's not exactly the most active profession, right. And I needed to be active. You know, I just needed to do something, three, four days a week. I mean, I didn't kill myself, but I wouldn't. You know, I did what I could maybe feel better. That's just me, I felt better doing it.
Kathryn Thomas
So there's a lot of people who might be listening who's done yoga who know when they finish yoga, or finish a long run or a long bike ride or whatever you do to get some adrenaline, you know, get your stress out if you will. There's a saying in the yoga community called the yoga bubble, like the yoga glow. Like I just feel better after I do yoga. And so what we've been able to do as an organization is actually study what it is that makes you feel better. Like so to put science behind why the curriculum works, right, because I can tell you that an incarcerated man dealt with the traumatic dose of his sister and realize that he was violent because of feeling abandoned by his father when he was a child. And now is found healing through yoga practice. But unless I can also give you not just the qualitative data, but also quantitative data to say that we were able to increase this post-traumatic growth and emotional intelligence is emotional awareness, his hope, and his purpose. That's how we studied the program. And so what we did...
Steve Martorano
Let me stop you right through let me stop you right there because I do want to make sure that we shift very definitively towards this, this issue of, you know, how you're using yoga, which is we said is ancient, but in a behavioral health context, where you can actually quantify you can actually demonstrate through evidence that it is having these benefits. That's what I want to talk about it as we continue to hang on the corner. Remind you Kathryn Thomas is our guest. She is among many other things. She's doing the executive director of Yoga 4 Change. And she's giving us chapter and verse on yoga,
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Steve Martorano
Let's get into the weeds on yoga for life. Why did you pick the four populations that you have already identified? I'm particularly interested in why did you see the prison population is maybe beneficial for this?
Kathryn Thomas
So the four populations of Yoga 4 Change were defined based on underserved populations that I felt drawn to. I mean, that's just I think that's the right answer that veterans I'm a veteran. I Am a military sexual trauma survivor. I do struggle with PTSD. And I know that for me falling asleep and staying asleep and not having nightmares, that's something that I'm dealing with on a daily basis. And so for me, Yoga has really helped calm my mind and my body, either after being activated or triggered. Yoga has really helped me through that. And so that's why I was called to help veterans. When it comes to incarceration and incarcerated individuals. I felt drawn to that population to my teacher, Louisa DiGrazia, out of the Yoga School of Kailua, she part of their curriculum was to go inside the prisons. So had I not been exposed to that, in a way that I was exposed to there potentially wouldn't have been that draw. But after teaching inside of prison and seeing men and women who have been acted in a way to either feel successful or to try, you know, to better themselves, but it's illegal to try to help them through their through pre-traumatic time in and of itself being incarcerated. I've seen a lot have life go on, if you will, a lot of people realize, you know, they've been able to shift their mindset which shifts their behavior so they can shift their own outcomes. That's why I was drawn to that. And then for use in Florida, specifically, just talking about my local area, all of the juvenile detention, residential facilities are for profit. And so in order to sort of shift how we deal with incarcerated children, I thought we could try to implement yoga programs and behavioral health services to help them potentially not get involved in the justice system. And then our mission used to include individuals who are in recovery, but now includes more broadly individuals struggling with mental health. Again, personally, I like I did I talked about I do deal with, you know, PTSD, which has side effects of depression, anxiety, and so being able to help other people who might be dealing with something similar to me. It's just really why we created those four specific populations.
Steve Martorano
What was the reaction to the prison population when you first approached them with this idea? What kind of resistance was there? And then ultimately, what did you find out after having taught yoga to incarcerated people?
Kathryn Thomas
There's different security for different present levels, right? We have offered programming into multiple different levels of the prison system. And I think there's a lot of misconception, as you kind of talked about at the top of the show about what you'll get is and what we were doing. So it's just sort of the proof of concept if you will. Right now, our reputation is proceeding us just because we have a very strict code of conduct. With a uniform, we have a curriculum, we teach certain ways you set up the room to ensure security, but also to ensure the security of my team if you will. And so yes, initially, it was really hard to get into incarcerates facilities. But after we've been doing this for six years, and because of the study that we were able to, not say the proof of concept, but really identify what exactly we were able to achieve through our yoga classes with individuals who are incarcerated or struggling with mental health or youth, or veterans that have allowed us more doors to open are all the doors open? No. We can't scale globally anyway. So, the strategic way we've been able to scale has been really, because of what doors are opening.
Steve Martorano
That's what's interesting. And that's what got us we reached out to you, I know you're going to be doing some studies with Retreat Behavioral Health, in the Florida area, but, you know, treatment facilities, whether their mental health facilities or more specifically, substance abuse treatment centers have always struggled with this notion of, we know we're helping people but we can't. It's not like testing a drug and having a control group. And it's not the scientific method. It doesn't lend itself to that. But the shift towards evidence-based treatment has been a real boon. And something necessary. applying it to yoga is fascinating. So what kind of data what kind of things are you quantifying Listening that can show the efficacy of yoga.
Kathryn Thomas
So I'm not a researcher. So it's really clear. I'm definitely not a researcher and I have been honored to work with Dr. Danielle Rousseau, of Boston University in which she was able to do was to come up with 12 different validated scales that the individuals This is so this is the correctional study we did in 2018. the individual took pre and post our curriculum, but we also had a control group, right. And what's interesting about our control group is they were eating the same food, they're waking up at the same time and had the same external stressors of being incarcerated. Because the individuals who are involved in our programming were also eating the same food waking up the same time with the same external stressors. And so that allowed it to be a control group study. And on top of that, we had already established a relationship with the Fourth Circuit Court of Florida. Judges had actually begun sentencing individuals to Yoga 4 Change programming. Really. Yeah, to reduce their stay inside. While they're incarcerated, a lot of words how it went and the story and incarcerated man or woman would go in front of a judge, a judge would say, you can either be incarcerated for a year, or you could take six yoga classes. Some people I know some people turn it down, right? That's going from a year to six weeks, one year of incarceration to six weeks of incarceration. Some people did turn it down because they did not want to do yoga. However, 95% of people said, Yeah, sign me up for that discount this year, you know, the silly judge was gonna give me six weeks inside, that's great. But what that was able to do, it was able to increase post-traumatic growth. So we'll just take that one validated scale. If somebody has any sort of adverse childhood experiences early on in life, they are predisposed to have mental health challenges, or substance use challenges or high-risk behavior later in life. Because early childhood trauma, if it goes on treated, will show up later in life in a larger way. Many of The individuals that we worked with had experienced parents divorce or parents being incarcerated or a loss of a loved one or neglect or abuse, and it was untreated. And so when they're re-incarcerated, the act of incarceration of itself has been said to be traumatic. I'm lucky to never have been incarcerated, but I can only imagine what it would be like being incarcerated. And so when they get out of incarceration, right, so when they get out of the jail or prison or what the holding facility wherever they are, where they're supposed to reintegrate back into society, well, now if they're dealing with mental health struggles of being incarcerated, which may have been elevated because of adverse childhood experiences, when they get back out into the community, the likelihood that they will re-offend is high. And so what we have done is we have given them tools and practices and techniques to use on the mat but also off the mat, you know, in the grocery line or a real like stuff to us all the time. That will do more stress and anxiety in the increase the posttraumatic growth.
Steve Martorano
What is that thing...things like...um? Because I know there's two components there's that there's the physical activity of, of yoga. But there are also other tools mental tools and Is that what you're talking about? In other words, if they're waiting in line somewhere and they're stressing or about to be triggered do something stupid. Their techniques that they're taught to Yoga 4 Change that have to do with like breathing or mindfulness is that what you're talking about?
Kathryn Thomas
I'm sure your you and your listeners have heard of the fight-flight-freeze response you know when if you were to walk in the woods and a bear was to come out your adrenaline was released and your sympathetic nervous system would be engaged that the fight-flight or freeze response if that's intrinsically enough, right, we either will fight-flor freeze can determine how we get out of something dangerous, right? And in order to calm that adrenaline and to get out of that state. We need to engage the parasympathetic nervous system which is the root at rest and renew, you know, relax, recharge kind of response. Many individuals who live in high stressful families or Have a lot of adverse childhood experiences, they don't ever learn how to engage that parasympathetic nervous response that rest or new, you know, recharge response. And so what yoga does is it engages the parasympathetic nervous system, either through movement or through the breath. And so if you're in line standing, you know, behind somebody and they're paying in pennies, right? And you have a feeling sort of out, you know, a little bit anxious because you might be late for something...
Steve Martorano
I was behind her earlier today.
Kathryn Thomas
Yeah, right. And you're getting stressed out, you know, wedding and your fists or you're clenching your fists and you're grinding your teeth and you're saying mean things to her in your head or maybe out loud, right? What we've taught our students is sort of do either mindfulness activities, bringing the mind the body back together. You know, maybe it's just rubbing the index finger against your thumb and then rubbing your third finger against your thumb and the fourth finger against your thumb and breathing intentionally. Maybe it's, you know, moving made an actual movement, or it might just be some sort of thing that you're saying to yourself, to calm your body. And what that is doing is that is what we've been testing for post-traumatic growth. So yeah, it was done on the yoga mat and the yoga class in an incarcerated facility. But we know that people are using it outside based on the qualitative data that we've been able to capture. And other people don't need to know that you're doing it, right. Like if you're in traffic, and you're gripping the steering wheel and your knuckles are white, simply opening up your hands and closing them and open them are activities that are going to get you to become and to focus on, not how late you are, but mostly how you're opening and closing your hands because of the sort of diverting your attention really helpful.
Steve Martorano
It's interesting the flight or flight response and all that stuff. It was a survival mechanism and an evolutionary sense didn't need to be controlled. When you had those feelings in the past. You just reacted. Now you get those feelings and sometimes they're not appropriate. So you have to learn to control them. So it's perfectly understandable how techniques can be taught in that regard. And it's obvious that yoga could be a great boon to that. So, you know, we can't do this, this is the radio. And by the way, I'm gonna have you back. At some point, we're going to integrate some video in this and maybe you can show us what you're talking about. But for a standard program that you're starting with either use or incarcerated people, what kind of a yoga program do you institute for that?
Kathryn Thomas
We have a bunch of different individuals who teach for Yoga 4 Change. And each of those individuals teaches a different style of yoga. And so there are probably as many different types of yoga movements or you know, putting all the forms together, right, so we got back to yoga, Ashtanga Yoga, yoga, Nidra, Chair yoga, restorative yoga, yin yoga, you know, there are all these different types of yoga. And so what Yoga 4 Change does is we don't tell the teachers what type of yoga or physical movement practice we want them to teach. All we ask is that they implement our curriculum, right? And so if you just take incarcerated population male and female men who are incarcerated don't normally get the opportunity to have physical activity for a long, extended period of time so that they can work out some sort of stressors. In comparison, women who are incarcerated are really doing a lot more of the mental-emotional trauma...sorry, my dogs...suffer mental-emotional trauma of being taken away from their families. You know, many of them are mothers, they're dealing with that. So the two different types of yoga that we use for incorporated men and women can show the diversity of the staff. So we do really powerful ready yoga with the men just so they can work out that stress. And then we do more restorative, more calming, more empowering yoga for the women just so that they can feel more comfortable in their bodies and they're able to deal with whatever mental-emotional stress that they have.
Okay, what's the deal with hot yoga?
I love hot yoga, I think, I think is because I like to sweat right? Like being in the military. I worked out at PT a lot. And it just allows me to work out my whole body. And with the heat, you have the added benefit. And sometimes it's sort of this fall, you know, the belief that you're super warmed up, which is what causes some people to injury, overextension, or that kind of thing, but I personally loved hot yoga just because it allows my body to sweat and I feel like if I sweat, then I'm gonna go hitting my goal.
Yeah, you must have...no pain, no gain, I guess. But right. I always the first time I heard of it, I thought what is this another one of these new-age trendy things. But you know, when you think about the origins, yoga, it was not practiced in Scandinavian countries. Huge. It was born in hot climates. So I guess it's sort of getting back to the first principles there. One of the things that I wonder about in yoga, and that is, you know, can you do it? You get a little older Can you do it? When I hear something like chair yoga, it freaks me out. Because it's like, oh, man, it's a recognition that I can't do that other stuff. So I got to be in a chair doesn't, you know, Chair yoga, what's that about?
I hear ya. And before I in all sincerity I didn't think Chair yoga was hard or hard for me, I have some yoga teachers on my team that can teach a chair yoga class that would kick my butt. Right and it would kick, even I think anyone's, you know, really be very challenging for anyone, because you get to decide how far or how far you go. And so an individual might find that chair yoga is more empowering, because maybe there's a pain in their knees, right, but there's not a pain in their ankles. And so they can use and press into their feet and just put less pressure on their knees. But what's really cool is Yoga 4 Change has a YouTube station, which I actually would recommend for people who are kind of interested but don't really want to go into a public forum right now given current times or also just continents level on our YouTube station is hundreds of different yoga teachers who have put out some virtual content for the community and it shows the different types of yoga you have restorative yoga you have in yoga, you have a strong value of background As a person who's just watching, you know, a screen can then choose based on your own ability level, what you think you might want to do and what it also shows is just because one type or style of yoga or one teacher isn't your favorite, again, like I said before, there are tons of different ways, in different practices in different types of yoga, just like there are tons of different flavors of ice cream. So, you know, I like chocolate chip cookie dough, but my husband really likes that, you know, Rocky Road..
Steve Martorano
So, so find the one you like, yeah. Kathryn Thomas, Executive Director of Yoga 4 Change is talking to us about yoga and the curriculum she's putting together and the fact that they are dedicated to demonstrating through you know, evidence that this can be a very empowering and beneficial therapy or tool in the entire field of behavioral health which is well beyond. The notion that I said most of us have is yoga as exercise. So, uh, Kathryn, I'm gonna let you go I know you're busy. I want to remind people that you are in the Florida area. So if you're listening down there, how can people just go to your website and find out where you are and all that?
Kathryn Thomas
Yes, our website is y4c.org. That's the letter "Y" the number "4" the letter "C" dot org and that'll have links to you know, we're on Facebook or on Instagram or on YouTube. But we also take letters it has all our contact information your appeal box and then also our emails and stuff so however, your audience wants to find us, we are available and if Yoga 4 Change -- the number "4."
Steve Martorano
Well, we hope we hope they find you through us because we run that same game where we want people to find us on all the podcast platforms and everything. Kathryn Thomas, we hope you'll come back with us again, again, we're gonna run a video component into this because we want to see some of the stuff you do with Yoga 4 Change. You wanted to spend a moment here at the end to do a little breathing thing for us. What what are we going to do here?
Kathryn Thomas
Yeah, sure, that'd be great. So, if you're driving, you can still do this. If you're walking your dogs, you may want to stop walking but or just keep walking wherever you got going on.
Open and close your hands really quickly. Just notice the sensation of fully open. And then close your hands and make them really tight like a fist.
And then now start to match your breathing as you open your inhale. And then you close you exhale.
That four more times, inhale, open your hands really notice how far apart your fingers you can make them. And then as you close your hand and you exhale, how tightly can you grip you feel your bicep, engaging your tricep, your forearm.
Inhale in and notice your palm can you stretch out the palm between the pinky joint and the thumb joint and really open up your palm. As you exhale, notice how closely you can make your pinky joint and your thumb joints.
Do that two more times deep, deep, deep. Inhale, open, open expand and exhale, exhale, exhale.
Next, inhale and think of one thing that you're grateful for. Inhale that in. Inhale to your feet
Open up your mouth and audibly exhale. Hahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Steve Martorano
That's it?
Kathryn Thomas
Yeah, that's it. That's it. 30-second thing, Kathryn.
Steve Martorano
Thanks. So thanks so much, Kathryn. We appreciate it. And then those of you who were formation, Yoga 4 Change, and I know they accept donations as well, they're nonprofit. Kathryn, thanks so much for hanging with us on the corner.
Kathryn Thomas
Yes, thank you for having I can't wait to come back to your corner.
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