The Behavioral Corner 

Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner, you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while. 



Steve Martorano 

You know, guys, as we've been hanging on the corner, I've been telling you that you just never know who's going to show up. That's the great part about just hanging here, the Behavioral Corner. Today we have somebody with us that represents what we like to do very often throughout the course of the year. And that is talking about recovery and give you a great example of a voice in recovery. I've mentioned it lots of times hanging out here on the corner and before that, we all know an awful lot about the disease of addiction and its devastating effects. We also know it's a struggle to remain sober. But what we often don't pay enough attention to is that, in spite of all that, and literally millions of people are living right now, in long term successful sobriety. That's the most important factor of all, to remind people. It's being done, as I said, by millions of people, and we've got a great example of that. Katie Newman is with us. And she is, you know, making her way successfully through now five years of sobriety, Katie, thanks...thanks for hanging on the corner with us. 



Katie Newman 

Good to talk to you, too. 



Steve Martorano 

You've had some very exciting events in your life recently, right? Got a new baby. 



Katie Newman 

Yep, a new baby in the middle of a pandemic, which has been fun. She's three months old now. 



Steve Martorano 

And what's your name?



Katie Newman 

Alice.



Steve Martorano 

Alice, oh, what a great name. Old, school name. I like that. Solid...solid name. I like that. Katie is 29 years old and as I said, she is now five years sober. Katie, let's talk a little bit about you. Where are you from? And what was the family-like and tell us about that?



Katie Newman 

So I am originally from Bel Air, Maryland. My parents met when they were in college and my mom got pregnant with me during her senior year of college, and they split up not long after that. So growing up was a little bit tumultuous, a lot of chaos in the house, but also a lot, a lot of love. I have a younger sister who is two years younger than me. And then I also have a younger brother, who is 12 years younger than me from my mom's second marriage. My mom and dad are very, very different. My mom is the hippy, Grateful Dead loving woman. Pre spirit doesn't really believe in rules. And then, on the other hand, my dad was in the military very, very strict, you know, a lot of roles.



Steve Martorano 

Wow. I was I have children of my own who are now adults and they have children. But they will tell you they were raised by hippies. Okay, they could break because both mom and dad were, you know, card-carrying hippies. How do you wind up with the hippie mom and the military dad that that couldn't have been easy as a youngster, right? 



Katie Newman 

No, no, it was not easy. The two households were very, very different. You know, like I said at my mom's house, it really wasn't many rules at all, but my dad was very strict. I think he was a little nervous that he had two girls kind of had a tight rein on the both of us. So you know, and my dad if I wasn't allowed to wear makeup wasn't allowed to date when I got older, you know, they wanted to talk to parents before I went over anyone's house, whereas, you know, my mom was just kind of like, yeah, go do whatever you want. So it was difficult to go back and forth between the two houses. Yeah. And, yeah. 



Steve Martorano 

So what about so tell me about your use or just tell me how you first were introduced to substances.



Katie Newman 

I started drinking when I was about 11. And that was, you know, at my mom's house, it was pretty acceptable on her mind. You know, if we were drinking at home, it didn't really matter. Now looking back 11 to me is so young. But she kind of just, you know, thought it was okay. She had her own alcohol and drug problems. So she wasn't exactly in her right mind either. But yeah, I have seen I started drinking at about an 11 and it wasn't every day. But pretty much whenever I wanted to drink, I could, you know, I had my own case of Smirnoff wine coolers in the cabinet. And I could just kind of help myself. So that really started for me pretty young. 



Steve Martorano

Yeah, you know, I have I'm no longer shocked at the ages. I've heard just as young as eight when I'm struck by is that what they all have in common. You know, no matter what the age youth started, it was always in the context of normality, in other words, didn't seem odd to you at all, did it?



Katie Newman 

No, it did not seem odd to me at all. You know, I didn't have any other friends at that age that were drinking. But it really didn't seem strange to me. It was totally normal for me to be drinking at that point and getting drunk. 



Steve Martorano 

So what was the progression of that? You know, you were getting drunk at 11 1213 years old. Is that what you're saying? 



Katie Newman 

Yeah, so, I mean, I'd like to think that it was pretty I was a pretty normal drinker. Throughout my high school years, but looking back, I definitely drank a lot more than my peers did. I was blacking out by age, I want to say 14 you know, all I could think about was drinking from, you know that age on. And because of my mom's issues, I kind of always had an aversion to drugs. You know, I saw what drugs did to my mom and my stepfather. And you know, I thought to myself, I'm never going to smoke weed. I'm never going to do any drugs. But it's okay for me to blackout drink whenever I want. Yeah, you choose you you choose your spot and say well, I'm not that I'm okay here but I'm not that. 



Steve Martorano 

So you knew mom was using when you were a young teenager was it essentially marijuana and drinking that she was doing openly in front of you? 



Katie Newman 

She was you know, drinking a lot in front of me. They also used cocaine. They never did cocaine in front of me, but it was around the house. So I would see it I know it was there. I knew what it was. But they weren't doing it directly in front of me.



Steve Martorano 

When did you progress to? Or did you progress to Harder, harder substances? 



Katie Newman 

I most certainly did progressive harder substances. I started smoking weed when I was 16. And then by the time I was, well, let me take a step back. So I had an ADHD diagnosis from the time I was 12 on so I had an Adderall prescription. And I started abusing that Adderall prescription ended about age 15 as well. And then, by age 20, I was, you know, doing cocaine, Xanax...



Steve Martorano 

Really? Yeah. Let me stop you for a second. I don't think I've ever asked anybody this. Lots of youngsters have been prescribed, you know, Adderall. There are all kinds of drugs for kids who are hyperactive or whatever? What's the decision-making process in your head? When you're taking it for something, you know, that's been prescribed? And then you decide, well, gee, maybe if I took a little more of it, I'd get high. Is that? Is that what you did? How did you wind up abusing Adderall? What was high like and tell me about it? 



Katie Newman 

Well, you know, I think it was I don't want to say peer pressure, but I never really occurred to me that I could take it, you know, for recreational purposes until a friend of mine suggested that I you know, now looking back I don't know that I needed the Adderall prescription I kind of thing that I was just, you know, suffering from untreated alcoholism at you know, young age and that kind of presented itself in other forms and you know, that's why they had prescribed it to me. But no, the Adderall it you know and enhance the drinking. It made me feel exactly the way I wanted to feel as soon as I started you know, taking more than what was prescribed right? And it was really hard for me to stop 



Steve Martorano 

Were you a good student bad student? And did you have a kind of normal and except for the substance abuse large social group? 



Katie Newman 

I did yeah. Except for substance abuse. I mean, I was pretty normal. I played field hockey I played lacrosse. I was captain of the lacrosse team. I did okay in school B's and C's nothing you know, crazy. I think that I probably didn't really apply myself. But I didn't get in trouble in school. I wasn't you know, really the normal idea what people have a problem child on the outside things really did look okay for me for a long time. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah, too often we imagine that the teenager you're describing is and this is a horrible stereotype, but she's a youngster who's maybe getting her first tattoos or, or piercings and she's hanging with a strange crowd and she doesn't leave her room and she's uncommunicative. You, you were none of that you were the kid on the front of the Wheaties box, right? 



Katie Newman 

Yep, that was me. I was none of those things. You know, I had a good group of friends. None of those friends are alcoholics or, you know, drug addicts to this day. They all you know, maintain normalcy in their substance use. I think it was really surprising to people you know, my family and my friends when later on, you know, I had more serious problems. 



Steve Martorano 

Let me guess it college was the tipping point for you. Am I right? 



Katie Newman 

Oh, yeah, college was most definitely the tipping point. I had originally looked at a school in North Carolina. I was supposed to play field hockey there. And I went down to visit and I was told that to be a member of the field hockey team. I had to do a three months dry season the first three months you know, during field hockey season so that none of the girls drank or anything And when I heard that I said no way, this is not for me. I'm coming to college to get away from home I'm coming to college to party -- schoolwork never even crossed my mind. So my first semester away from school was a huge tipping point and things are really escalated for me. 



Steve Martorano 

You know, when you make that decision, it's extraordinary decision shows you how the grip of this disease can change the way you make decisions when you walk away from kind of the "All American Gir" lifestyle and choose to party. Well, what was the reaction of I guess your mom went, "Well, whatever. I had fun in college." Is that what happened?



Katie Newman 

Yeah, my mom pretty much said, "Well, whatever." And my dad was shocked. You know, I had dedicated a lot of my life to field hockey starting from seventh grade on. I was playing either field hockey or lacrosse seven days a week. I was on club teams, you know, I had I always said I want to play in college. That was a goal of mine. So for me to go down to school with that intention, you know, to visit and then all of a sudden I'm saying I don't want to do this anymore. My dad was really really shocked.



Steve Martorano 

And angry, right? 



Katie Newman 

Oh, yeah, he was not happy. He thought I was making a huge mistake. 



Steve Martorano 

It's amazing. I know you've thought of this. But looking back, he was always the stone in your shoe. And mom was always like the cool one. Doesn't look like that now, does it?



Katie Newman 

No, it doesn't. You know, I love my mom to death. She has supported me and been there for me in ways that I don't know that I would have made it if she wasn't, but at the same time, I think if my dad hadn't been around, I don't know if I would be alive right now. 



Steve Martorano 

Katie take us through the progression Where did all this lead you eventually?



Katie Newman 

Well, I ended up dropping out of school in North Carolina and moving home, where I found that none of my old friends from high school were around anymore. So, I did fall into that crowd of the typical bad kid. You know, they were doing harder drugs. And at that point, I was very interested in experimenting. So you know, I, I started out with Xanax and prescription painkillers, here and there, and that very, very quickly progressed to bath salts and methamphetamine. I started using those when I was around I want to say 20 - 21 and not long after that, I found myself in my first and my first rehab facility. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah, before you get to that, a couple of things. First of all, what's a bath salt high like?



Katie Newman 

It is very similar to methamphetamine...



Steve Martorano 

Oh, so it's a stimulant. It's a speed thing, right? 



Katie Newman 

Yes, it is a speed thing. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah. And how do you ingest it?



Katie Newman 

Uh, you can use needles, you can snort it or you can eat it. 



Steve Martorano 

Where do you get it? I mean, you can just buy bath salts, right? Can you just buy it?



Katie Newman 

Not anymore and by the time I had started using them, you couldn't anymore I actually knew a person that made them and his home. 



Steve Martorano 

So that's where I got them from, you know, that brings up the other thing you mentioned that I want to impress upon people, this notion of falling in with a bad crowd. It's not like you woke up one day your friends were still in school and they had moved on with their lives and so you couldn't rely on them. So it's not like you woke up and said, I need a bad crowd to hang with you. It's more like let me find some people that I'm comfortable with. Is that how it works? 



Katie Newman 

Definitely. Yeah, I was just looking for new friends and you know, those people didn't have anything to do really with my, you know, alcoholism progressing? I was searching for that. And you know, you draw what you are yourself, you know, you attract what you are yourself. And I was definitely looking for people I was comfortable with and those people we know we're doing the things that I was comfortable with and it made my drinking and drug use seem more normal. Yeah. And that's really what I was looking for. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I mean, a lot of people still don't understand that. That dynamic, but it really is nothing more than looking for kindred spirits involved in the same behavior. So that it feels like once Okay, is what we all do. Right. So did you progress beyond? Did you get anything? Not that there's anything worse than methamphetamine. But did you experiment with heroin?



Katie Newman 

I did. Yeah. Now that actually didn't start until after I went to rehab for the first time you know, you talked about the kindred spirits and I met some more kindred spirits in treatment. And you know, the first few times I went to treatment, I didn't really have any intention of staying sober. So I, you know, flocked to the other people that didn't have any intention of staying sober. And after I got out of treatment for the first time, I used heroin for the first time and also crack.



Steve Martorano 

Tell me about the circumstances around the first time you get the treatment, how did that happen? 



Katie Newman 

So I had had a very, very bad night drinking and using bath salts and my friends, you know, I was in a blackout and my friends, you know, yelling at me asking me why I'm acting like this. How can I do this? And, you know, I drink I get very, very mean. I can get violent, I turn into a completely different person. And so you know, they're wondering why am I behaving like this? I don't know where the thought came from. But I went home that night, and I told my mom that I think I needed to go to rehab. And I, I thought that rehab was just you know, an intensive 30 days of therapy and that I would be able to go and talk about past trauma and depression and anxiety and then be able to come out of there and drink normally. Yeah, that was my thought. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah, maybe you meet a cute guy and have a fix. I call that "Sandra Bullock syndrome." You know you go in, yeah, you got a problem. 30 days later, it's gone. And you know, you're in love with some doctor or something like that. And you know that that myth that fantasy, still persists? doesn't work like that. How many times old together and between what ages were you in and out of rehab?



Katie Newman 

I went to rehab five different times between the age of 21 and 23.



Steve Martorano 

Five different times. residential treatment every time?



Katie Newman 

Yep, residential treatment every time I did the full 30 days, every time?



Steve Martorano 

Detox the whole thing?



Katie Newman 

The whole thing. Yep, detox, and then the inpatient ward every time.



Steve Martorano 

What would happen after every stint in rehab? Looking back? Was it the lack of motivation going in that cause you to relapse? Or, or what, what are the things that might have factored in?



Katie Newman 

I think it was a lack of motivation. You know, you talk about the guy, I would always meet a guy who also has a lack of motivation. And I wasn't really prepared to do the things I needed to do when I got out of treatment to stay sober. I would get really caught up in, you know, I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, and I would get really caught up in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous and they're hanging out and I don't, you know, completely ignore the step work part of it, I would completely stop going to therapy and not deal with the other problems I have apart from no substance use. 



Steve Martorano 

No, it's interesting. I mean, you, you were into the hang, and not the work. 



Katie Newman 

Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah. You know, it's an aspect of AA of people fall prey to serious relapse over that period of time. Did you ever seriously overdose? 



Katie Newman 

I had an overdose after my first treatment. And that prompted my next treatment. And after my second treatment, I got my first DUI. And then you know, after the next few, it wasn't anything, nothing really serious happened that would prompt me to go back into treatment. Most of the time, I would end up kicked out of my recovery house homeless without any money and, you know, rehab seems like a really good idea when I've got nothing else.



Steve Martorano 

Yeah, a lot of people don't appreciate that either that sometimes multiple visits to rehab are really just a way for the sufferer -- a person with the disease of addiction -- to recharge so they can get back out and do it again. Yeah, that's another it's another old story. Hey, we're hanging on the corner with Katie Newman, new mom babies -- three months old. She's 29 years old, sharing her story of substance abuse and now, as I said five years of sobriety.



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Steve Martorano 

OK, Katie, you went through your struggles four years ago and is a different world four-five years ago. We're now talking to people who are facing similar situations, either trying to get to rehab for the first time or trying to stay sober in the middle of this pandemic. I know you've observed this. I know you you have feelings about well how difficult it must be for that. Are you in contact with...are you support in any way with anybody who is in recovery now?



Katie Newman 

I am. Yeah, I have a really good group of women that I'm friends with. And they are all in recovery. That was a huge thing for me as well. I wasn't really willing, in the past to let go of being very close with my friends that were still drinking. And a lot of times that would, you know, lead me, you know, to go back back to my old ways. But today, you know, I talk to my friends in recovery almost every day I talk to my sponsor a few times a week. So I'm surrounded by people in recovery. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah, yeah. What kinds of things are you hearing and what kind of things are you sharing? We know that we are seeing right now. It's kind of over been overlooked by the but naturally by the pandemic, but there's an alarming spike in overdoses just a shocking spike in overdoses. They have a multitude of causes buying them and an equally high number of people who are relapsing and trying to get in treatment again. And it's difficult to do that because of the virus. What kinds of things? Do you guys share this group of women that you talk to? Who are all in sobriety? How are they managing this? 



Katie Newman 

You know, most of them are doing really well, you know, they all have multiple years sobriety. But we all have seen, especially with, you know, newcomers who are trying to get sober for the first time or are recently over, again, that are having a hard time because I think, a huge part of you know, I talked about that I was so focused on the fellowship. And, you know, previous years I think that the support from other people who, you know, have experienced what I've experienced is so important, and it's really hard to make those connections over a zoom meeting or if you don't know anyone at all. So I think everyone is just really doing their best to reach out to people that they know are struggling or even the people that they don't necessarily think are struggling just to stay in contact with everyone. do what we can to help 



Steve Martorano 

We know that this disease under the best circumstances is one that forces isolation. And that's deadly that can be deadly to somebody suffering from addiction. So here we are now, people trying to maintain their sobriety and being told that it's imperative that they don't gather together that can lead to stress and stress is a trigger. 



Katie Newman 

It is yeah, definitely. I know. You know, my, my husband had been sober for four years and he recently relapsed and is now back in treatment. And I saw that with him, you know, the isolation not reaching out not being able to go to meetings or meet up with people. And you know, the stress from that is very serious, and I think was a direct link to his relapse. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah. When you relapsed, and I guess I can ask you about your husband, as you observe it. When you relapse. Did you feel like a failure? Was there shame associated with that? Or are you indifferent to the relapses? 



Katie Newman 

Oh, no, there was so much shame. I mean, I look at it a lot differently now. But you know, five years ago, when I used for the last time, I felt like such a failure. Like I couldn't even really tell anyone that I had relapsed. It was embarrassing and shameful. That was just me. I don't know why everyone seems to feel that way. Because when you finally do reach out, nobody really cares. And everybody just wants, you know, to help you. And it really is just a learning experience. There's, you know, nothing necessarily wrong with it. I mean, it's really scary now because of all the overdoses and you never know if you know, you're gonna make it or not if you're using heroin, especially. But if you relapse and you make it out alive, I mean, there's no shame in it. But I definitely remember feeling that shame. And I know that my husband definitely feels that way, especially after having so many years sober and then going back out music again. 



Steve Martorano 

It's really scary. When you hear people who've had multiple years of sobriety and they stumble. In a sense, a sense of hopelessness might result but you know, we, we talked about this before we went on the air and that's there's a lot of research right now that says look, relapse is not something you should plan on. It is not inevitable but is very, very common. And the researchers are now looking at that and suggesting that look, if you relapse and don't die, okay, and get back up and try again, these multiple relapses and multiple returns to treatment can actually increase your chances of success. Do you see it that way? 



Katie Newman 

I definitely do. I mean, I can look back at every relapse that I had, and see how each one, you know, made me stronger in recovery and made me you know, a better person. I think I grew up a little bit more each time I relapsed and tried again.



Steve Martorano 

I have a very tragic story of a couple who lost a son to an overdose. And they were now at strong advocates for treatment and all of that, and they were just an inspiration. But during a break, I had to ask the mom, I said, you know, it's amazing that someone who, who, whose son didn't make it would be so strong about how important it is to pick yourself back up and she said, Oh, no, he didn't quit on us. He just got you to know, he just got unlucky in that last one, and it cost him his life, but she said, No, you got to pick yourself up and try again. If it doesn't kill you, it will make you stronger. That's certainly been your experience. Right? 



Katie Newman 

Yeah, it definitely has. And that, unfortunately, that's kind of what it comes down to sometimes is luck. 



Steve Martorano 

But you can't get lucky unless you keep trying. Let's talk about a couple of minutes here. You've got a new baby. So that takes a lot of time. It can be stressful. What are some of the kind of positive behaviors you use? And you think you think others might benefit from doing you know, things like diet and exercise, but what kind of positive behaviors you think people should be focusing on? While they try to maintain their sobriety?



Katie Newman 

Yeah, I mean, diet and exercise are huge. I would also say you get to see a therapist, see a therapist, somebody other than just a substance abuse counselor, because those two types of therapies can be very different. And, you know, something that I've been doing especially since the baby's born is, you know, it's simple, but I just make two goals for myself. Something that is like easily attainable, whether it's you know, doing the dishes, or getting the laundry finished things that just keep me motivated. And, you know, focus. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah, at least I got that done that makes a lot of sense. Let me ask you with regard to this notion of cravings because again, a lot of people on the outside of this disease go, Well, why in God's name, would you go back to using again, once you'd been, you know, 30 or 40 to 90 Day two years sober? Where your relapses and I guess your husband, associated with a craving or physical craving to get back in using, or was it a psychological craving? What was it? 



Katie Newman 

I think, for me, it's more psychological. I know for my husband, he got into the idea that he could drink like a normal person and that kind of set him off on you know, it had been for years he you know, he saw He'd be okay if he drank again. And you know, that sent him off on a destructive path. And for me, it's really more psychological. 



Steve Martorano

Did you worry about your sobriety? When he when he relapsed?



Katie Newman 

Definitely, that was what I was just about to say, you know, he was drinking in the house. And, you know, as I said before, like drinking was, you know, the first thing for me, it was always, you know, the hardest for me and, and, you know, he would have, you know, like a bottle of liquor in the house and just seeing that, you know, in the kitchen, day after day, definitely was hard for me mentally. There were a couple of times when I had the thought, you know, I could drink and nobody would know. But thankfully, you know, because of the support system I have. And you know what I do on a daily basis to stay sober. I did not relapse. But it would have been very easy t.



Steve Martorano 

Yeah, right because it would have made it less painful to watch your husband. What impact is the baby had on you? In terms of sobriety?



Katie Newman 

The baby has a huge impact on me I and I love her more than I thought I could love her she keeps me very very busy. But at the same time, you know, I know myself and I will say that if I were to have relapsed, she probably wouldn't have---that love for her would not have been able to get me sober again. 



Steve Martorano 

Really?



Katie Newman 

And it's really unfortunate. Yeah. I love being a mom more than I thought I would. And she's so amazing. But that addiction in myself, you know, I've seen in the past so strong that a lot of times like, there's nothing that's gonna stop me. You know, until something bad happens and I go back to treatment. 



Steve Martorano 

Well, you know why that's brutally honest of you, and we appreciate that that that candor on your part, a Katie's now as I said five years sober. She is an absolutely shining example of somebody that can work hard at this and make it work. The evidence of that is more striking with the fact that your husband is now currently battling his way back. So Katie, thanks so much for sharing. The last point here I just wanted to mention is with regard to telemedicine, which is sort of long-distance treatment, you avail yourself of that from time to time? Can that work for people do you think? 



Katie Newman 

So, I definitely think that the telemedicine in terms of therapy is wonderful. It makes it easier, more attainable. You're not getting in your car and driving somewhere when we're trying to figure out how to take the bus somewhere. You're more I think that people are more likely at least I'm more likely to you know, get on to a therapy session on zoom versus trying to carve out time in my day to physically go somewhere. But in terms of a 12 step program, I don't think zoom meetings and telehealth are really beneficial long term. 



Steve Martorano 

Yeah. Because that loss of being in the room and with other people is, is practically impossible to recreate. electronically. Katie, that thanks so much. It's great to hear your, your your your strong, clear voice and congratulations on the baby. Great. Good luck with your husband. I hope that works out for you all. 



Katie Newman 

Thank you so much. 

Thanks for hanging with us on the corner.



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