Grace has been working in the recovery field for seven years and proudly celebrates her long-term recovery. Her passion is working with and mentoring those who are struggling with addiction. She enjoys empowering women as they find the strength they need to overcome this disease.

Steve Martorano  
The behavioral corner is produced in cooperation with retreat behavioral health, where healing happens

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and well-being. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around a while.

Steve Martorano 
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Behavioral Corner. Here I am right there. Steve Martorano, your hosting guide. You now work, we hang on to Behavioral Corner and we run into the best people in the world. Today is no exception. Incidentally, it's all brought to you...with the great cooperation of our underwriting partners Retreat Behavioral Health, they provide not only the finances to get the engine going, but some of their people who are the best in their field. That's the case today. But with a pal of the show, no stranger to people who found us and kind to follow us. That's Grace Shober. Grace has been a great friend of the program. We work with her back. For you are just meeting Grace, she is not only involved in Retreat, but she's also the house manager of a couple of sober living facilities in the Lancaster County area of Grace House. Maybe she can tell us a little bit about what she does there as well. Hi, Grace.

Grace Shober 
Hi, Steve. Hi, everybody.

Steve Martorano 
For a peek behind the scenes, I have been messing around with my technical problems for two days now. Grace has been very, very, very patient, and I apologize. And she's very, very busy as you might imagine. So I want to get right to this. Well, I told Grace a while ago, I want to do something on the 12 steps. Because I find that they are misunderstood by many people, and a mystery to others who know sort of something about the 12 steps, but not really, you know, what they are specifically and what they mean. The 12 steps in case you know nothing about this are the foundation, really the starting point for how the AA or Alcoholics Anonymous, the foundations upon which their fellowship and their support begin. It all starts with the 12 steps. And we're going to take a look at the broad overview. Because Grace is an expert, she is in long term, very successful recovery herself. She told me the other day that she's "old school" about 12 Steps...

Grace Shober 
Big time.

Steve Martorano 
...but believes them in her soul to be the way for her and many, many others towards sobriety. So I couldn't ask for a better person on this one. Grace, let's begin with sort of garden variety dumb question which I get paid to ask. And that is why are they important. Why are the 12 steps important?

Grace Shober 
12 steps are important because they are the only thing medically, scientifically, and otherwise, that is proven to work to keep people sober.

Steve Martorano 
Okay, the only thing is interesting, and we'll get back to that a little bit later. But again, these are 12...

Grace Shober 
It's the only thing proven, it really is Yep.

Steve Martorano 
The 12 steps are just that 12 individual items very clearly written in the Big Book, which is the guide for AA. It has its traditions in it. It has its history. It's a chapter and verse on what AA is all about. And the 12 steps are just the 12 very specific things that a person seeking sobriety must work their way through in order to have any success in handling substance abuse and the like. So they're important because you say the only thing that works. Let's get to that a little bit later because I'm interested in taking a couple of these specific steps and really analyzing them. And the first three, I said to the other day, I think we can roll into one because I'll read step one to you so you understand where I'm coming from. Step number one of the 12 steps: We admit we are powerless over alcohol or substance abuse, and that our lives have become unmanageable. That's step one. Two says: We have come to believe that a power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity. So again, one and two are almost about the same thing. One, it's unmanageable. I have not been able to do this. I have no power to make anything better. Number two says, If I cannot do it, there must be a power outside of me. That's greater than me again, it's an affirmation of your powerlessness. And the third is that you must make a decision to turn your will and your life over to the care of It says "God" very specifically, but then it adds, as we understand him. So we'll break them down a little bit individually. But am I right in assuming that those three are essentially about one thing?

Grace Shober 
Yeah, those are grouped together as like, "I can't do it, you know, myself." But a lot of people get scared with the first word, like in the first step, or it says, admitted I was powerless over alcohol, right? I'm gonna be honest with you. Like, I don't get hung up on words never really, totally did. But that one did kind of annoy me slightly, because like, I didn't want to feel powerless, you know? And all I was hearing was, you're powerless. No, I'm powerless over alcohol, oh, well, I'm not powerless over other things in my life, there are other things I can, you know, contain kind of control and like balance, it just alcohol is not one of those. So if we look at it that way, in terms of not like, Oh, we're just powerless in general, it's just over this, the substance.

Steve Martorano 
So Grace, if we acknowledge that the first few steps are about powerlessness. How do somebody and you've been there and done this -- how does somebody you know, reconcile that. I mean, he's got, you know, you have a huge problem, you know, it's ruining your life, you know, if you continue doing it, you're gonna die. And now you find a program or support that says, okay, just admit you can't do anything about it. You're powerless. Well, why wouldn't that just stop you in your tracks going, well, it's hopeless?

Grace Shober 
Well, again, everything's an eye of the beholder, you know what I mean? So, of course, we have to play a part, you know what I mean? Like, we have to play a part in the whole thing, what we are absolutely unable to play a part in. And what we absolutely have to surrender to is our addiction and alcoholism. So it's like, we cannot fix the fact that we have the disease of addiction. But what we can do is follow these things to stay in remission, you know? So it's like, no, we're not able to control alcohol, but we can kind of guide and control what happens to our life going forward. So is he as like a double-edged sword, you can say you are the one who's responsible, and you are totally, but you have to play a part.

Steve Martorano 
All right. So let's use an analogy that people might understand, in this context. And I know it's used in the fellowship, and I've heard it in your business, your field, which is substance abuse, treatment, and recovery, and that is they use the diabetes model. In other words, somebody says, You got diabetes, your blood sugar's whacked. You can't just go into another room and say, "Okay, well, I won't be a diabetic anymore." You are powerless over the disease you have, and then the doctors gonna say to you, but if you do these things, you don't have to die from diabetes.

Grace Shober 
Exactly. You can say remission. Yep. So that's what

Steve Martorano 
we're talking about. When we say powerless, there's no magic wand, you've got to disease. You can't do anything about it. You got it. But here are some things that can help you manage this thing and get it under control. You use the word "remission." I know that in the fellowship, there is a firm belief that you don't get cured of this. Is that right?

Grace Shober 
No, I actually almost the exact opposite. Because like right at the beginning of the big book, it has the word recovered in it, because you can recover from it. I think, in my opinion, that is the opposite of that. Yes, it can come back. We know that relapse is a part of the process. But we don't want that to be a part of the process, right? We want to recover. And the point that what why we say recover and recovered is because if we continuously work these 12 steps throughout our life, we will stay recovered, you know, but the problem is we start getting time like and I can attest to this total, we start getting sober time, and you start letting certain things fall off a little bit. You know, maybe you're not helping as many people, maybe you're not being honest, really anymore over here and this and that holding more resentments. And so if you're not working those steps, and like keeping yourself in line, you're going to fall off. But if you just follow those things, the old school model, that's my old school, they will tell you, yes, you're recovered. Do you know?

Steve Martorano 
This is a very rigorous program. There's no getting around it. As I understand the 12 steps and the fellowship, this is about working it and paying close attention to what the steps are telling you to do. So I begin to get a better idea and I think I hope other people will, that this notion of powerless while it seems illogical after all, if you don't have the power, how you're going to fix it? I think I got a better idea of what that means. It's more about managing that.

Grace Shober  
And it's so ego-driven. Isn't it?

Steve Martorano 
Oh sure.

Grace Shober 
Like we just powerless over one thing you know like we want to hold the key to everything, what I say to people is, you know, there is an entire, because when we talk about the first three steps, and I know as you pointed on that the word God is in there. There is an entire chapter for agnostic, it's called for people who don't know. You know, there's not like a chapter for people who like absolutely say no and don't believe. But what I will tell you is this, because of the word God, that's the word I choose, right? If that's the word that bothers somebody, change it. Change it, if you want to. But all you have to know, is I'm not everything. Like there has to be something else, regardless of what that is. And that might be somebody doesn't believe in God, but somebody believes in like, Mother Nature, or whatever what, you know, something like that I don't, I don't do the doorknob or the chair. That's All dumb, you know. But if you really believe that you are a grand purpose, then you will, and you're the most important person in the world at that point, then you would not be able to get through the steps

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, I understand that. And I also understand because I've read a lot about AA and its origins. And as you know, it grew out of a religious movement. The first group, the group that sort of inspired the AA movement, was the Oxford Group. And that was a faith-based organization dedicated to helping people who had crippling alcoholism. So I understand where God, the origins of the Word, and the greater power notion are. I also remember reading about the great psychiatrist, Carl Jung, who early on was trying to treat someone with alcoholism. And at some point, he recognized that psychiatry wasn't going to help this person. That they needed a and he said it. And this is not a guy who went around talking about God. Jung said you need a spiritual awakening.

Grace Shober 
Yep.

Steve Martorano  
You need to speak to somebody about your soul, even though Jung probably didn't believe in that. He said Because classical psychiatry is not going to help the situation. So I understand the origins of that word. And I understand that over the years, morphed and widened so that people who are put off by that notion would still have access to the program. So I get all that, I guess what I'm thinking of is, it's almost again, it reminds us of the first steps, you must humble yourself.

Grace Shober 
Yep, absolutely.

Steve Martorano  
In the face of what's going on. And, you know, that applies to a lot of things. So I don't know why people would think it would be unusual in this context. But I get all that. Let's move through just a couple of others. I know your time is pressed, you're so great on this issue. First of all, let me ask you a question. When you first got involved and decided I'm going to do this, I know, I'm powerless and all of that. And you saw the 12 steps for the first time. And you went through them? Did you think I'll never get through this list?

Grace Shober 
Honestly, no, I honestly looked at it and thought, okay, like, what's the point type thing, and I did what I was told, but I only did it, like, very surface level. Do you know what I mean? Like, I would kind of do, maybe I like to sort of, like, okay, I can't drink I kind of like do number one. And I'm not really sure about God, maybe maybe I'm in charge of everything. And then I'd be like, I know, I have to like write about, like, who I need to apologize to. But I actually would rather talk about the people who need to apologize to me. So like, I would do different steps in different ways because of how selfish this disease actually is. And I did the steps many, many times because I was in treatment so many times. And the last time I did, it was the only time and like, and honestly, I know you've heard my story and everything else. But for people who are listening, I was a bottom-of-the-barrel junkie, you know, living on the street and everything else. So I know what I'm talking about, you know when it comes to this stuff, and the only thing that after all these treatments, everything I tried, I tried to go to church every day, I tried to hate God, I tried to go to all these other meetings, bah, bah, bah. The only thing that worked for me was when I absolutely jumped right into those 12 steps. So I can't It's impossible to say it didn't work. Like I was one of those people. And truthfully, when I got sober the last time I wasn't like super pumped, you know, I was like, I'm gonna give this a shot, just like because I'm being told to give this a shot. Maybe it works, and maybe it doesn't. But if it works great, you know? And so that's what people got to do they have to give.

Steve Martorano 
You can't minimize the importance of getting to that point where you accept as you just said, a lot of things that don't make sense. And you don't even know about who knows. But except for the moment that what the hell I'll try this. Let's see what happens before we go into step number four, which really stops me in my tracks when I think about it -- it did matter in the order that you do the 12 steps do you have to do them in the order they're there.

Grace Shober 
Yep, you have to do them in the order. Now there are some that are like when you get to step like, for example, Step eight, and you're writing out the people you need to make amends to, and you start making amends. And Step nine, you don't need to finish all your amends before you move to Steps 10, 11, 12. You wouldn't want to do that anyways, you want to get through the steps, but you continuously are doing Step nine, as long as you started that you started making amends, you can move to the next one.

Steve Martorano 
Okay, so the order is important. Let's look at four, make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. What does that mean exactly? What are we doing here? I mean, you know, you're a mess. You know, you're gonna die. You're sick and tired of all that. You understand the times you stole money and all the stuff you did when you were in the grips of substance abuse. How hard is it to be honest, in that step?

Grace Shober 
Four is the house cleaning, that's exactly what they call it. But here's what I know, I know that nobody loves to take a look at themselves and what they've done wrong, or right. So I know that to be true. What I also know is I was never like super afraid to kind of like write these things down and be like, you know, whatever. It's just a list. Like if you say, Okay, this is gonna help you write a list, it's gonna help you stay sober, you're gonna start writing, you know, and you're just like, you maybe don't understand it, but you start doing that anyways. And then you know, things start to change, and you're, you're putting things down. But let me just jump back onto there real quick. If I wouldn't do steps 1,2 and 3 First, okay? I would never be able to see my part in any type of bull crap that I was in when I'm trying to write my list about who I've harmed. Do you know what I mean? Like I have, you have to, mentally spiritually kind of like get to a point where you're like, I know this person hurt me. Here's the part I played, what can I do better? Do you know what I mean? And I know that a lot of people relapse on step four. Because they you are thinking about the things you know, that you've done, the people that you've hurt, like, all that kind of stuff, and that it's painful, it doesn't feel good, unless you're a sociopath, you know, to be like, hey, this doesn't feel good. So I understand why if you don't go through it quickly as people do absolutely relapse on these things. I think the hardest thing is understanding that there are other people out there who absolutely have done or understand the things that you've done.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. Step five talks about it. Following from for naturally, you've made this inventory and admission that you know, either to your God or to some other person, the and I'm going to quote this precisely, the exact nature of our wrongs. What is the exact nature mean?

Grace Shober 
Yeah, so we look at things when we're like, looking at like, what did we do wrong? And we look at things like was that to cause anger, jealousy, bitterness, you know. Was that to like, manipulate somebody like was the nature of what I was doing to manipulate somebody so that I could take their money or use them for this or use them for that? What was the actual cause? Was it jealousy manipulation? So we're trying to look for like, what was our character defect?

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. Yeah. In other words, it's not enough to notice that you've been in a car crash, and just go wow I was in a car crash. This is the step that says, take a real good look at how that happened.

Grace Shober 
Yeah, I'm in a car crash, because I was on my phone texting because you know, whatever.

Steve Martorano 
Exactly this, the accident just didn't fall on top of me. I wasn't driving properly.

Grace Shober
Exactly. Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
You must be brutally honest about the nature of the...

Grace Shober 
That's a great analogy to use, Steve. I love it.

Steve Martorano 
And then six talks about again, six seems like a reaffirmation here. So you've done that you've admitted powerlessness. You've taken a fearless inventory. Then you admit that and understand, again, your exact role and how that happened. And we get to six where it says, sort of, okay, you've done that. Now, are you ready to admit that this other greater power than you can relieve you of these deficits? These character flaws. So it's kind of like a pause, and go, Okay, got all that. Now, I'm willing to buy into it, there's something else that can help me. Is that what six is?

Grace Shober 
Exactly. I mean, that's exactly what six is. I mean, you're literally taking a breath taking a breather, to just admit that like, listen, all this stuff, I don't need it anymore. I need somebody else's help, you know/

Steve Martorano 
And that's absolutely critical in order for seven to make any sense at all, because seven says, humbly asking that these defects and shortcomings can be removed from you. If you haven't achieved six, then you're never going to be able to go, Okay, help me get rid o this.

Grace Shober 
Exactly. Yep, exactly. It has to go in order, and it just has to be like that word when it comes to like the program. If you are not humble, it doesn't work. Again, that comes back to the entire thing that like, I'm not in charge.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, we know that all the expressions and all the cliches we've ever been subjected to growing up, start to make even greater sense. I mean, Pride goeth before a fall. And you know, the great Greek tragedies were always centered, for the most partitions, not always, but for the most part, the Greek heroes fail, because of pride. Pride was always what took people down in the eyes of the Greek gods. You're not the center of the universe. And that's why you're into trouble you're in. So you begin to understand a little bit about what these steps can mean in action. Before we move into a couple more steps quickly. Do people have the occasion of having to start over again? Maybe go get stuck someplace and go back to the beginning of the 12 steps and see where they made mistakes. And how does that work?

Grace Shober 
Absolutely, people can redo the steps at any time, the most important thing is like, once you go through the steps, you do find relief, because someone's like that procrastination thing where you're like, I know this has to be done. But it's you know, so if you get through it quickly, there is a relief. You always can restart. I've restarted the steps several times and gone back through them because of what I put on there like the selfish things that I did or the wrong things that I did. They didn't just stop during active addiction like I'm still human. Do you know? So I have to go back and like, correct these things while I'm sober, or else I end back up where I was.

Steve Martorano 
It sounds like the same process that you would follow in a gym, where you set up a workout program, and go through it, get yourself in a certain amount of shape. But you can't stop there. You've got to keep doing it, you have to...

Grace Shober 
You have to maintain.

Steve Martorano 
Maintain the level, right? So again, I said it was a rigorous discipline. And it certainly is Grace Shober is with us from Retreat Behavioral Health and Grace House for sober living facilities, taking us through the 12 steps. Eight is a killer for me. Eight is the one that says, make a list of all the persons we had harmed, and become willing to make amends to them all. It would seem to me that one could get stuck on eight for the rest of their life. Because let's face it, whether we're in substance abuse situations or not, we manage to hurt a lot of people in our lives. Tell me about eight for you. What was that like?

Grace Shober 
So the thing about eight is, you know, it always throws in the word willingness and willingness doesn't mean you're ready to do that, right? That is there just means like, maybe at some point, you will, you know, it's not like you're closed off totally. You know, and what I will say is that, when you work with your sponsor, they're absolutely...my sponsor, he just called me the other day and said, Should I apologize to my ex? Yes, but not right now. We're like, in the beginning, stages, maybe like a year when things have calmed down. Because you don't want to cause more harm than good, like, here's another example, if you stole a bunch of money, okay, or a bunch of drugs for a drug dealer, you're probably not going to go back to that drug dealer and say, I'm sorry. You might get killed, right? So what you will do instead is you're gonna put a couple extra dollars in the basket at the AA meeting, or you're going to donate to St. Jude's at the end of the when you're playing at the cash register, round up your amount, you have to give back, you know what I mean? You aren't necessarily able to do that at that moment. And it's not safe, maybe at that moment. And then there are also going to be men that just pop up in front of you. And you're just like, oh my god, it happened to me. And I was just like, I forgot about it. It wasn't even on my list until I saw this person, you know. So it is a continuous just be willing, don't totally shut off "no" forever, but definitely have guidance for who and when you want to...

Steve Martorano 
It's an excellent way to describe it. Because I know I thought what it was was a list of 200 names or 50 names or whatever. And then you sit there making phone calls or arranging to meet people. And you know, in addition to what you talk about, a dangerous situation, trying to make amends in a dangerous situation. Yeah, there's also trying to make amends in a situation where the person that you have harmed isn't ready to hear it.

Grace Shober 
Absolutely. Absolutely. And guess what? That's not your problem. So the thing is, the proof is in the pudding. My brother didn't talk to me for like four years until I was four years sober. I made amends right away, you know, but I had to prove myself, I had to prove that like, Okay, I'm not going to just like say all this stuff, and then it's going to be done, you know, but my job to do amends is not to apologize, okay? We've done that so many times. We're supposed to say, You know what? This is what I did wrong. I know. This is why that happened. And this is what I'm doing to make sure that doesn't happen again. Because you don't want to make promises and you don't want to say you're sorry, it just doesn't mean anything, right? So once you say that, and if somebody says forget you or I don't forgive you That's okay. Eventually, they probably will. But you did what you were supposed to do. And now you have to walk away.

Steve Martorano 
Well, yeah, that's what's so, so terrific a description of step number nine, direct amends, where possible, your description of, well, maybe put a couple of extra bucks in the basket at church or maybe whatever, volunteer at a food bank, whatever. Yeah, I get that completely. These steps reinforce the previous steps. So ten is continuing to take personal inventory. And when we were wrong, we promptly admitted. That's just a review of where we are. And if it's happening, see if we can fix it right there.

Grace Shober 
We're going through the steps. Remember going through the steps show that you're human, don't be upset with yourself if like, at the end of the day, you're like, you know what, I really shouldn't have flicked that person off in the driving line in the passing lane. Like, you are going to do things. I just don't want people to, like, look at the end of their day and say, Oh, my gosh, I wasn't spiritual all day. I messed up, you know? No, that's not how it works. You are working on this progress and work when you work at something, I didn't just learn how to do it immediately. It took time, you know? So I just want to remind people, like, take time, don't be super hard on yourself. You know, if it's not like absolutely perfect, as long as you're being honest, it will work.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, that sort of clears up a little bit of the 11th Step. Eleven says through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with the word God's here again, as we understand Him, praying only is key here for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out. When you were going through the steps, and even now, I know you're a religious person. But do you pray often or meditate?

Grace Shober 
So I'm definitely more spiritual than religious. I do believe in God. I just don't believe in some of the punishments that come with like what you know, they say, like, certain things in religious aspects. Certainly, for me, it was difficult, but that's when you get to step 11. And you're just like, listen. I have to do something. I will tell you right now, the only perfect thing that I do is pray. That's it. And I pray in the morning, and I pray at night and everything else in between. I suck. You know, like most of the time, you know, I'm just like, human in between. But in the morning, when I get up, "I thank you, God, for allowing me to wake up. And please help me to help somebody else." At the end of the day, "Thank you, God, for allowing me to make it through the day. Please let me wake up sober." Whatever. Like, I used to think when you did a prayer, it had to be list and you have to listen to every person in your family. If you forget somebody, they're gonna get in a car accident, a whole thing. It's not the case. It's a short talk to anybody. You don't hear God. You just say, I need help.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, can it also mean, again, for those people who just are not going to get their head around God -- because meditation is in here meditation -- as I understand it is not prayer. It's going inward, candlelit, and also be thought of as someone going through the steps, is getting ready to go to bed. And they're their last thoughts are as they quiet their mind the best they can. Okay. That was today. I did those things. Tomorrow, I'm going to try to do the same thing. Is that the same as what you're talking about?

Grace Shober 
Pretty much? Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. I often think if I can be personal for a second, that, well, I spend a lot of time acting like I'm pessimistic about stuff. I'm, in fact, a pretty optimistic guy. I'm usually going to bed throughout my life thinking, well, I get another shot tomorrow. I'll get another shot tomorrow. Right? And let's just try to make the best of it. So 11, well, it looks very religious and very, and you characterize it for you is pray. It doesn't have to be that specific behavior.

Grace Shober 
No, absolutely. I have a friend of mine, who meditates. Prayer isn't what works. She just like sits there and quiets her mind. For some reason, my mind is doesn't love to be quiet. So prayer works better for me. Some people do both, you know, one or the other. So yeah, it's really individual on that. But it's either like the prayer or meditation, you know, to something.

Steve Martorano 
Grace, I want to only get to 12 quickly because 12 goes on about having, you know, by this point, you should be having this spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, and then try to carry this message to other alcoholics and to practice these principles in all your affairs. This is, I guess, the proselytizing step. This is where when someone says, how did it work for you? You say I did this. I did these things. Are you saying to someone, and this goes back to what you said at the very beginning? Are you saying to that person at that moment this Is the way to get sober? Or this is the only way to get sober.

Grace Shober 
Personally, for me, it's the only way to get it not was it anybody can get sober. You can go to detox. It's the only way to change the wording a little bit so that you can stay sober. In my opinion, I think anybody can go and get off the drugs and alcohol if they really wanted to, and they're lucky enough to get into a facility or whatever. But it's what happens after you know, that's my opinion,

Steve Martorano 
You work your way through them. Now, you really haven't been working on the specific or singular issue of using. You've been working on yourself.

Grace Shober 
Because that's what it is. We're the problem. Alcohol and drugs are the solutions. You know what I mean? Like I love...you love the feeling of like, you just don't love the consequences. Do you know what I mean? It just doesn't have a positive negative list. But, you know, at the same time, when it comes to step 12, and I say this all the time to people who are like, if I ask people to speak, if somebody says no, I let them know that they're selfish, because I'm like, Okay, so like somebody gave you their story. And it helps you get and stay sober because it is like a lot of that stuff. And you're unwilling to give that back for free. Like you got it for free. And you're unwilling to give it back. You're selfish.

Steve Martorano 
Yes. Because for many people I talk to you. And they asked me about AA and the 12 steps, and my answer. And again, I'm over here because I've mercifully been spared these problems. But I say to people, does it work? Does AA work? It sure works for the people it works for. And you can't tell them it didn't.

Grace Shober 
It works for the people who work it.

Steve Martorano 
Because you know that there are people who are fortunate, in one sense, to have walked into their first meeting, and listened to the other people, they all have the same initial reaction, I ain't them. When they get over that, realize they are them. They often then go well, but this is not for me. And they leave the fellowship. And some of them get sober. So, you know, you can't very well say to them? Well, they did, right?

Grace Shober  
Well, here's the issue. Okay. My, it's very difficult to change my mind on certain things when it comes to AA, in general, only because it was a learned experience. I was one of those people who were like, Oh, I don't want to be at this meeting. You know, I would rather be in the trap house. You know, like, that's pretty much what I was choosing everybody when it comes to the steps, is responsible for themselves. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I know, it's like, it's hypocritical almost. And you said, like, kind of like an oxymoron. Like, you're not supposed to do this, but you are supposed to do this, you know, type of thing. But that is what it is. I mean, there are still choices that we have to make that lead us to like different things that can lead us to good consequences. It could lead to bad consequences. But all I know, personally, is all the people like when you said, they left the fellowship, they went to smart recovery, whatever, okay. Everybody that I know, personally, has stayed sober and maintained sobriety. And that's a lot of people that I know, who work the program, and they continue to work the program. And I do also know, very sadly, many people who I got sober with 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years sober, because they aren't working in the program think they can drink again, and they're found dead in their apartment with a needle in the arm. That is how it is.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, Grace, this has been great. This is maybe the best primer I have ever heard. And I've read a lot and heard people talk about it. Very few people are as open as Grace is. As you can tell, she speaks what's on her mind. So it's, it's been a great jumping-off point. As I told you, I would like to talk to some of your people who are in recovery to not do this so much, but maybe pick one or two of the steps and tell us what their experience with it was personally, I think that would shed even more light on it. Just want to leave with this and see if you agree or not. The program strikes me the more I hear about it and understand it as the ultimate expression of what the philosophers called pragmatism, and pragmatism is easily understood is the good is what works. I mean, that's what Henry James said. And he was sort of the father of pragmatism. The good is what works. So you have people talking about AA crazy nonsense. Not for the people who work it, because it works.

Grace Shober  
 You're not kidding. You're not kidding. It definitely does.

Steve Martorano 
Grace Shober, thanks so much, honey.

Grace Shober 
Thank you so much.

Steve Martorano 
Thank you all for your time as well. Don't forget wherever podcasts are podcasting, look for the Behavioral Corner.

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