Steve Martorano 
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens.

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner. You're invited to hang with us as we discuss how we live today, the choices we make, what we do, and how they affect our health and well-being. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around for a while.

Steve Martorano 
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the behavioral corner. It's me, Steve Martorano. And here's what you can see. I'm gonna you can see my very orderly office. Everything is in order here because I'm kind of a neatnik, not, not crazy. So but proud of that. I don't know if I should be, but I am. Because we're going to talk about clutter, we're going to talk about the stuff we accumulate during our lives. It has a tremendous bearing on our behavioral health. It really does. And you know that if you've been watching the program that podcast at all over the last year or so, you can see who I guess is again, it is the conqueror of clutter herself—the queen of clean. Decluttering Life Coach Beth Lennon is our guest on the program. Hi, Beth. Good to see you again.

Beth Lennon 
I Steve, nice to see you too. Yeah, it's been a hot minute.

Steve Martorano 
It's been almost a year and a half. Since you were here. You were a revelation to us. We heard about your interview with us for weeks afterward. Because everybody, you know, at one level or another, has this problem with, oh my god, what am I going to do with all this stuff? And what you do is parachute in and show them techniques and ways of dealing with decluttering, which sounds like a physical task. Oh, let's move this over to here. And maybe get rid of that out of the house. And it certainly is that, but it is also a huge psychological battle. And so when you're as good at this as Beth is,sdE you have to be, you have to have several hats, and I'm going to name a couple of you to fill in for me. Beth has to have the skill of kind of an interior designer. She has to know what might look good in that room instead of what you have there. She has to be organized. An organization is important. And the one I liked the best is that she does have to be an armchair psychologist. Where does it begin best? Does it begin on the psychological side? What's the biggest barrier to people saying, oh, straighten this mess out? Is it the physical barrier? I don't want to do this, or is it the psychological barrier?

Beth Lennon 
Well, it's really interesting because I do a lot of one on one coaching and live things on video. And oftentimes, people think I just need to move this stuff with my hands, I need to take this item from one place to another. And what I've really learned, which has been fascinating and so enjoyable, it's not about what's in your hands. It's what's happened before it even is in your hands. So while you can totally get some, you know, decluttering done just by dealing with surface clutter or stored clutter, things like that. The real kind of magic happens when you realize that what you think about your clutter makes you feel a certain way. And when you feel a certain way you do a certain thing. So you might feel a certain way that keeps you stuck with your clutter. But then it's cluing into what can I think a more helpful thought that's going to get me going to, you know, release this item or make a decision about it or keep it or things like that. So it really is up here. Yeah,

Steve Martorano 
you know, that's what struck me most when you and I first talked. I really am ashamed that I never understood that because it should be self-evident what was keeping for, and I'll use her just as an example. She's not around. She won't get mad. I never understood why my wife managed to hold on to things. It's just for the sake of holding on to that. Yeah, I thought it was just, well, she doesn't want to go down into the basement and move all this stuff. And that's kind of lazy. And it wasn't that it was what this stuff meant. Yeah. And it contrasted to me who has, as a rule, generally speaking, I'm not attached to things physically, you know things right. So I never got that until I spoke to you it's a very significant thing. Most people don't aware that that's the problem. Do they just oh, it's too much trouble, right? Yeah, well,

Beth Lennon 
who you know as you know, the behavioral corner it can be scary to turn the light you everybody wants to think that the problem is out there. Nobody wants to to realize or admit that it might be in here because it's scary to turn that lens on yourself. But when you do, not only do you discover that what you think about certain things Things affects what you do and how you feel. But the neat thing is to realize that because of that, you have the opportunity to make a choice to change how you think about certain things, in order to get the result you want.

Steve Martorano 
We have Beth with us because it's spring. And for reasons that I'm trying to understand, we associate spring with cleaning up, obviously spring cleaning. Any idea why it's spring and not autumn?

Beth Lennon 
Well, I think it's kind of all the time. But here's what I imagined. And I'm sure you can, too. It's not as warm as I want it to be right now, where I live; however, when you've been trapped in your house all winter with the windows shut, grimy, and things like that when there's fresh air outside, and it's warm, and you can throw up in those windows. I mean, spring cleaning is just that notion. I mean, I'm sure it's rebirth. Things are growing, things are changing, and there are all sorts of stuff behind that. And also probably just wanting to Yeah, kind of blow out the dust and shake out the rugs. And, and, and get it to be where your living space is enjoyable for you to live. Because when your space looks and feels better, you feel better as well.

Steve Martorano 
I know these things are tied together, but I want to try to break it down for people so that they can understand your process and how it might work. When someone comes to you and says I need your advice, because my stuff is overwhelming me. That's a simple way. But my stuff is are they trying to create more space in the house, more order in the house? Or more time so that they can do other things? What are they when they say I want to clean it up? What are they trying to accomplish?

Beth Lennon 
Okay, so I would say technically, it's all of the above because a couple of things happen. One is when you don't have space in your house, it makes it much more difficult to find things to get things to do in an orderly fashion. You know, you want to be able to get up out of bed and hit the ground running in the day. So you want to minimize the amount of time that you're spending looking for things, you know so that you have the maximum amount of time to do things you want to do. You know, so it's a couple of different levels. It's decluttering, your your home makes it look more orderly, you can find things more easily to have space for perhaps you know, hobbies, painting, you know what things you want to do. But also it's a notion of making decluttering your schedule, you know, not filling your schedule with random things that don't matter. When you declutter the things that don't matter in your home, you have space in your home, when you have decluttered and your schedule, from the things that really don't matter. You create space in your schedule for that.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, yeah. And I know for me, the other benefit of getting things in order is the removal of this nagging thought that I haven't done it yet. Did you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, the, there's nothing easier to procrastinate about than cleaning up the basement. You know, who or your garage or something. Right. And for me, the painful thing is not doing it. But thinking about not doing it. Oh, I gotta clean up the garage. I gotta clean up. Yeah, I mean, that really can take the wind right out of your sails, right? Well,

Beth Lennon 
the interesting thing is to me, so I call my coaching destination decluttered. And if you see behind me, I've got like, this little thing that I'm pointing to all the time with my coaching, is you've got a map pin right here, and you've got a little car and a road trip. But what I want to offer is your destination. So saying to yourself, before you even start, what do I want this space to look and feel like why am I doing this, to begin with? If you look at it like a chore, then it's going to feel like a chore. But if you're saying that every time I show up in the basement, I'm going to put one less thing there and it's going to feel so good that I'm starting it. It's going to feel so good when I'm done. And when I'm done, I'm going to have the space to do whatever I want to do with that, or even just that I have, I have dealt with things that I've avoided dealing with and now's the time I'm going to do it. And there's nothing quite like that feeling of accomplishment when something's been nagging at you is hanging over your head and you're like, I did it. It's done. You know, so showing up and doing the things you said you were gonna do. on many levels of your life is an awesome feeling and clutter. Decluttering is no exception. Well, this is why

Steve Martorano 
we love having bedlinen with us. That's a great, great tip right there. When it's a chore that nags at you because it never gets done. And it's thought of merely in the context of clearing out a space with no destination or a reward at the other end, yeah, you suddenly don't feel motivated to do it. I love that little thing on top of it,

Beth Lennon 
Well, it's, it's true because I mean, here's what I love to think is, is when you know that you are going someplace fun when you're when your destination is the beach or the shore or vacation. Even before you get there, you have that feeling of This is good, I'm heading somewhere good, well, I'm going to do the thing. So when you get stuck in traffic, you just roll with it, you're like, every step, I'm getting closer, when you're heading to maybe the job that you don't like, or the root canal or the delay with the DMV, you're gonna be like, I don't want to go there, this isn't gonna be fun. And then the whole thing, the journey, it's all about, it's not just about getting there, it's about enjoying the process and realizing that you're doing something that's you're showing up for yourself to get you to a destination, you know, a space in your home that you want it to look and feel better. Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
Do you see? primarily women? Are you seeing men and women,

Beth Lennon 
I will see anybody that is ready and eager to work with me as far as changing their clutter. I will say that, historically, most of my clients have been women. But I will I will coach anybody. I think a lot of women, I will say this, a lot of what I've found is that society, it has been almost the burden of decluttering. And the household has been unnecessarily, you know, targeted the woman. So I love to remind people both when I do my videos and my lives and my coaching, that everybody in a shared living environment, should be participating in the decluttering and the maintenance of the home to the extent that they're able because decluttering is a life skill. Decluttering is making a decision about an item and saying do I want this in my life or not? And if I do want it, where do I want to put it?

Steve Martorano 
And like so many other psychological or even substance abuse issues, they affect the family. Clutter as a problem in a household is a family problem. Even if each member of the family doesn't contribute the same amount of the clutter, they're affected by it. So let me ask you in that regard, sure. You've got to be almost, or have you had the occasion, when a client shows up of having to be sort of a couple's counselor here because, you know, very often one's cluttered, the other one's not. And that's, and there's a clash. If you had to talk people through that process I

Beth Lennon 
have I have actually, I've actually been on multiple calls with both the husband and the wife or the partners, and what I want to offer is, and I say this to even the people that I coach, independent in a one-on-one that hasn't a family combination. Everybody on the planet has a story in their head about stuff and clutter, and what their stuff means to them. I mean, who was it? George Carlin? My stuff is good stuff. Your stuff is junk.

Steve Martorano 
You know, we had it on the site?

Beth Lennon
Yes, I remember that we put him we put them down. It's perfect. Yeah, and what I suggest is that, you know, everybody has their own reasons for keeping or, or not keeping things. And you know, some people are sentimental, some people are not. And coming at the clutter conversation with your partner or your family, with that shared notion of dealing with it and talking about it and changing so the house gets decluttered and stays that way, a is a goal that's going to benefit everybody is a destination that's going to improve how the home runs and looks and feels for everybody.

Steve Martorano 
Let's talk about the kids in this. In your experience, I know this will be a guest on your report, but I'm sure you have a good guess. Is soldering a learned habit? Or do you inherit a cluttered gene? What do you think,

Beth Lennon 
Oh, if it were genetic, then I mean, no, it's totally a learned behavior in my opinion. Because we are taught as children to hang on to items or release them. We are taught as children to imbue they imbue inanimate objects with meaning. And it's the human condition, you know, but what I love to offer is that we know that we can imbue something you know, that doesn't have any meaning with great meaning. But we can also remove that because the meaning doesn't exist in the item. It exists in your cart. And yourself.

Steve Martorano 
You're great at this you you are absolutely the best when you think about you move this problem from the sort of garden variety Oh, you're just messing you know, clean this mess up to a deeper and more effective way of trying to solve it. So let me further with the kids. Sure, yeah, you can begin very early even if you are clever with making sure they don't develop bad habits just because you Hateley

Beth Lennon 
completely. And that's one of the things I love about when I do my one on one coaching with people that have children is also just looking at our own selves in the context of you know, having, you know, parents who maybe came from a generation that struggled with the, you know, the Great Depression and coming from a place of lack. And then there's an overabundance of mass-produced items from the 50s 60s, and everything. So knowing where we are, and breaking that chain of saying that holding on to items that do no longer serve you is a good thing to do. Yeah. And as I said, it's like, it's a life skill, that having them participated in every age at November winch is just going to create a better human being, when they go off and are adults on their own. To just know to make decisions that align with what you want in your life and be okay with moving away, what doesn't work for ya,

Steve Martorano 
you know, you don't have to look very deeply into the past to see that people's behavior is largely shaped by their experiences when they were younger. Certainly, that depression notion of scarcity, made people as they grow older, that generation, the greatest generation, careful about what they threw away, they were frugal, and they didn't waste stuff. We live in a different age and a different culture. Not every culture is characterized by abundance. Therefore clutter, I'm thinking as Japanese culture seems spare. Do you suppose the Japanese have a clutter problem as well?

Beth Lennon 
Well, what I want to offer is that I can only speak from the, you know, the, the, the time of where we are, and I'm American, so I can speak to the United States. But what I find interesting is that you know that you mentioned that it's an abundance issue. Like there's an overabundance, and much like eating when you don't have enough any food if you need food. At a certain point, you're satiated, but anything excess is going to cause problems as much as having none. So it's also we live in a capitalist society that encourages you to express what money you make and how you love people and all sorts of things by buying items and giving gifts

Steve Martorano 
or your possessions. Yes. And we live in the great the world's greatest consumer culture ever in the history of the planet. Yeah. And so it shouldn't surprise us that we're, we bury ourselves under these things. Yeah. Well, past the time, we're still playing with them. Here's the thought, Okay. He said, as we get deeper into the technological age, I can see in my own experience, things that used to be I used to be surrounded by that are no longer in my room. I don't have to gigantic speakers, a turntable tuner, and hundreds and hundreds of albums. Yeah, they're gone. They're now kept here. Right? And this? Can this? Can this sort of be the beginning of the salvation for us? I mean, it's a shame that kids don't have maybe a library of hard books, but they can read every book ever written. Uh-huh. Well, you know, the library's going off.

Beth Lennon 
This is a interesting thing I want to hit get to is the fact that I think it was this year or last, for the first time in decades, the sale of vinyl albums out surpassed anything. So I think they're, you know, depending upon the generations, like we I still luckily have some of my records. But you know, there's always a generational thing. So some people nowadays, want to react about, the impersonality, or the ephemeral quality of, you know, music on a thing. They want to look at the record, and they want it to be an experience, versus just being able to call up anything. Sometimes that's not fun. They want to make it have more meaning.

Steve Martorano 
Yes, this style. It'll go away. There will be a generation, somewhere down the road, who will go you actually had the records in the room with you. What did they look like? I remember why there was a time when you know, I mean, I wasn't a great collector of records. I used to get them from my job. So they were abundant but, you know, when you tried to move, and all you have as a Volkswagen. Yeah. And those records were a drag records. Would I do guys that lived among 1000s of albums? It was great to have that, but it was a burden. I think the technology might help the clutter field, but not without your help, that's for sure. Yeah. So let's take a look at your garden variety person, and I'm sure everybody's different. But you see people in what stage of anxiety, their clutter, are they mildly upset said, are they there because their husband or wives are bothering them? Or are they? Have they become overwhelmed by it?

Beth Lennon 
So I will say two things. One is that they have gotten to the point where the clutter in their lives or their homes or their heads, or their schedule has gotten to a point where it's really negatively impacting them. So they're looking for help. They're not saying, Oh, this is fine. They're not working; something's not working. It's, it's no, it's it becomes like, oh, this was okay. Until it wasn't, so they are at a certain point with that. But the overwhelming word I have to say is the word I hear so often when I do I do tick-tock lives, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. And overwhelm is probably the number one word that I hear. And I love it because I'm able to remind folks that overwhelm is something that seems too big, so you don't know what to do. But you can actually you can solve overwhelmed by simply looking at it, whatever it is in it with a with a more focused lens, you know, so when you look at your whole house, you what I call, you chunk it down. So you say, okay, my whole house is cluttered. Okay, let's start with one room. A chunk of your house is one room, and you can make progress. The thing is, is overwhelms you from doing anything. And coaching allows you to think of things differently, so you can start to do the things and take the actions that are gonna get you that result you want.

Steve Martorano 
Beth Lennon is our guest, you can see what she does for a living. She helps people gain peace of mind and serenity. Yeah, by the often that simple task of cleaning up their rooms, get your stuff out of here, best fit one more time with this. What does it look like? So you do most of your coaching now virtually? It's great because you get a picture inside somebody's house, you would have to be going to their house, so you get to see what's going on. So you say you break it down into elements. You begin with the proverbial junk drawer. Is that not a problem? Where do you typically begin? And what do you tell people as you can see the mess they're in?

Beth Lennon 
Right? So So I have a process. And as I said, I love to kind of break things down really simply. So it's easy to understand and also actionable. So you see results right away. Because what you want is showing up on a daily basis, and doing a little bit every day is going to be the key to knocking down the clutter that has amassed over decades but also changing your habits. So you don't just pile up again once you've knocked it down. So what I love to say is there are three layers of clutter. And on the kind of metaphorical road trip, as I'm pointing behind me, to from where you are and to being decluttered, there are three levels, there's surface clutter, they're stored clutter, which would be like your junk drawer. And then there's sentimental clutter. So the surface is just all the stuff kind of on that accumulates in daily living. That's stuff that's it's out on the surface, but it doesn't belong there. If you put it away, you'd be done. So that's the kind of, you know, that's a habit of putting things where they don't belong. Stored. Clutter is the stuff that's behind doors and drawers. So no cabinets, or closets that your house may look neat. But don't open that closet door because it's going to be like Mickey's closet, and everything falls around, right? And then the sentimental stuff. Oftentimes people think when they think of decluttering, they think I'm going to have to get rid of all the stuff that I care about. And I just I just need to dispel that because it's no farther from the truth. Decluttering allows you to eliminate the things that are not working for you and that you don't need that the multiple of stuff. So you have space for the things that do matter to you, and sentimental stuff, is the things that tell you a story of people of yourself. And you can decide then if you need to keep that thing to remind you of that story. Or is there another way that you can remember what that reminded you of without having that physical object that you've imbued with a story in front of you?

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, do you begin the process on that low, the lowest levels and work your way up to the other three levels? Yeah,

Beth Lennon 
and actually, what I like to say is it's a road trip. So you start with the easy stuff because it's going to be it's almost like when you go to the gym, you don't go in and immediately head for like 100 to 500-pound weight and try to lift it up, you need to build up your muscle. So you need to build up to areas of your decluttering you need to build up showing up and doing a little bit at a time. Because what has caused you to be cluttered is probably just avoiding this stuff and saying oh, I'll do it later, do it later. So showing up a little bit and also making decisions that align with who you are now and who you want to be and so with the or, you know, the stuff on the surfaces that are pretty simple because that has very little emotional, you know, internal stuff.

Steve Martorano 
It's more a result of convenience or habit habits, you can say dropping the mail Yeah, on the table as you walk through the house, rather than have a special little something for the mail, but we're I do that all the time. Then you look around you go well, this place is a mess.

Beth Lennon 
Yeah. And it's that's all habits. So that's really easy peasy. The other thing too is that when you get into stored clutter, then that's again about habits of delayed decision. is about, Do I need all this stuff? How can I make it easy for me to find the items that I need? Immediately and what no longer serves me what long no longer fits both metaphorically and physically post-COVID clothing, for example, looks a lot different than pre-COVID clothing. So you might be having things hanging in your closet that you aspire to get back to a certain, you know, shape or weight. But it's getting in the way now. And so it's talking about, again, that notion of who you are now and what you want your life to look and feel

Steve Martorano 
like, yeah, that's stored. That, yeah, it's also it would seem to me, correct me if I'm wrong, a kind of a way to deny the problem of living out of sight, out of mind.

Beth Lennon 
Right? Yeah. I mean, yeah, anything you want doesn't want seeing you hide it in the closet skeletons in the closet in the, you know, the closet. You know, I mean, I could open up this. And luckily, it's nice and organized. But that's for me, but it's that notion of outward appearances versus what's going on inside.

Steve Martorano 
All right. And then that third one is the real tough one because that's tied up in history and family and emotion. How do you take people through that? Do you have a hard time talking to people out of holding on to stuff?

Beth Lennon 
Alright, well, you see, here's the beauty, I never talk anybody in or out of anything, I allow them the space to make a decision that feels right for them. And that's the beauty of me only coaching on Zoom I'm not in their house saying I should you know, here, give me that throw it away.

Steve Martorano 
So if you found yourself in my basement about 15 or 20 years ago, and you came upon a cardboard box, yeah, that had canceled checks that were 25 years old. Right? What was your reaction? Wouldn't you have said to throw these away immediately? Well,

Beth Lennon 
no, well, here's the thing. I would say, what are these? Why did you keep them? What do you want to do with them? It's all about you. Your decisions reflect what your life looks and feels like.

Steve Martorano
Let's work this out as you do in acting school. So the question you would ask is, well, why are you holding on to these?

Beth Lennon 
So hey, oh, these are a bunch of canceled checks. What's up with this?

Steve Martorano 
I'd say well, what happens if I need? I gotta go back and show somebody I proved I paid my gas bill. 1977.

Beth Lennon 
Cool. So I'm gonna ask you, when was the last time you had to do that?

Steve Martorano 
I never had to do that. That's why I have so many checks.

Beth Lennon 
Okay, so based on that, could you shred them? Could you let them go? Oh, yeah, yes, you could. Sure. Yeah, see, boom. That's how it happens. So the interesting thing is, to me, you just also hit paper clutter is a huge thing with people. And you said checks from 77 years, right? That's probably not digitized. But nowadays, the paper that tends to overwhelm people is really actually a paper copy of something that already exists digitally elsewhere. So we're in like a transition period in our society where prior to being digital if you didn't have that piece of paper that proved it, you were in trouble. Right? You had no other proof. With very few exceptions, the paper items that you have are paper copies of stuff that if you throw away that bank statement, you could log in and print out another one, or you could call somebody and say, send me another one. Our habits have not kept up with the transitions that we have. We're still thinking we need to keep these things just in case I'm gonna get in trouble if somebody asks, Hey, back in 72, did you pay the gas bill?

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, that's actually a true story. Anyway, a couple of other things, and I will let you go. I have nothing but questions. Oh, I'm here for you to ask what, uh, what about collectors? Legitimate collectors? Yeah. I've seen photos of people who collect beer bottles that line the walls and shelves they put up, and it looks ridiculous to me. And are they a different breed? Is that part of the clutter? Or is the mere fact that they say, Well, I am a collector? Take the clutter issue out of it.

Beth Lennon 
Yeah, so I say clutter is in the eye of the beholder? You know, so to you, you're not a collector. You see, that's junk. If you look behind me, I have a collection of old train cases and things like that. I am a collector. So what I love is surrounding myself with items that bring me joy. Now I think the thing is between collecting and clutter is everything. They're something that you've physically said, you know, yes, I really like this, it brings me joy, it adds to the enjoyment of my house. If it does, then to me that you keep that but when it gets to that point where instead of as I say like instead of lighting you up, it kind of drags you down, and you're like, oh my gosh, I have so much stuff, then that's when you would curate your collection. Pick out only the good ones, you know, any duplicates you have, you know, sell them or whatever. And again, the collection comes from that notion of kind of scarcity and you know, certain generations and thinking, oh, this is so rare or also I get it harkens back to when people like to collect things from their childhood. A lot of Gen Xers and even boomers do these toys that they had in there too. Childhood, they go spend big bucks on him. That's because their parents decluttered for them and didn't say hey, do you want to keep this Fred Flintstone, whatever? It was just gone, and they feel that lack, so they go and collect these things to make themselves feel better.

Steve Martorano 
Recently, I read of Mickey Mantle, the baseball player Mickey Mantle, the Yankees his rookie card sold for $2 million. And all I could think of when I read that was, I'll bet you 10s of 1000s Mickey Mantle rookie cards were thrown away. Yeah. In the 50s. Yeah.

Beth Lennon 
Yeah. It's that scarcity.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. And finally, a couple of things. One is on the road to boarding. Yes. Does clutter lead? Can it lead to hoarding, which is another kind of deep, crazy psychological problem, right? What's the diff? What are we talking about there?

Beth Lennon 
Well, the cool thing is, is that it makes it pretty easy because ordering is actually a legitimate diagnosis of the DSM five. And that is a kind of as response to trauma that has people gathered items around them for what, in a way, to basically make themselves feel better. So to me, you know, I think the word hoarder is kind of bandied about, like, Oh, I'm a hoarder. I'm a hoarder. But that's a really serious diagnosis. So when I, you know, I do consultations prior to getting into one on one coaching with people because I coach people for like 10-week packages. And I always have a consultation to ensure that what I offer is something that's going to help them, and if I ever hear that it sounds more serious than just your average, every day this stuff is getting in my way, I'm sick of it, I really want to do something about it. Oftentimes, orders don't see that they have a problem. And it sometimes requires an intervention. So I always say that there are trained medical and psychological professionals that should be helping the hoarders. And just to know that there is help out there for people whose clutter has gotten to that state because of what's going on kind of mentally,

Steve Martorano 
and it is, and you're correct. It is identified as a legitimate psychiatric disorder. And finally, last evening, I was telling my wife we're going to talk to you again, she loved the first show, she said, Oh, good. Ask her about the gentle art of death cleaning. Yeah. Definitely. I went, what I thought she was talking about, you know, one of these crime scene people that come in and clean up after a massacre. She said, No, no, it's a show on television and a very famous book. I said Swedish death cleaning. Yeah. So real quickly, what's up with you?

Beth Lennon 
Yeah, well, the thing that I love is you think about it, we talked about earlier about us, you know, those of us in the United States with this capitalist society and our attention, our perceptions, and what we do with stuff and clutter. Sweden has this kind of established kind of thing in their society, of when you get to a certain age, just really start thinking about what's my stuff? And what do I want to happen to it? After I'm gone? Or before I'm, you know, kind of getting your affairs in order. Stuff-wise, before you leave this mortal coil? You know, and

Steve Martorano 
We're talking about, distinct from getting your, your affairs for...

Beth Lennon 
Yeah, well, you're talking about stuff around, but it's that kind of same concept of what do I want to happen with my, you know, my stuff, my monetary stuff is your will, but also like, you know, what are the things that are important? What do I want to make sure that is passed on to somebody else in the family? I don't want to burden them with all my items. And so I love the fact that, as we mentioned earlier, different societies approach to clutter and stuff in different ways. And I love the fact that this kind of concept of Swedish death cleaning is something that's catching on in the US because, at a certain point, it's taking responsibility for the items in your home and ideally doing it. I mean, I plan on living another 50-plus years. I'm already starting to think of, you know, what are the things that I want to pass on to my nieces and nephews? What are the decisions I'm making right now that may not change what my house looks like, but I already have a plan in place to say, You know what, after I leave, here's the exception other than that back the truck up and donate it all somewhere, you know,

Steve Martorano  
We just death cleaning. Yeah, it's like living living learn. You would know about that, necessarily here. Because if you're like me, you, you hope and expect to live forever. So what did someone say I want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it by never dying. But the Swisco No, we're all going to go, so let's get the house in order. It's great stuff and the best. You're the best, Beth Lennon. Thank you very much. Now you know where to find your chick talk. She's got Tik Tok. She's got videos all over the place.

Beth Lennon 
Yep. All you need to do is look for  Destination Declutter. As I said, I like to think of it like a road trip. And I'm on all the socials, and I've got a website, all that. So,

Steve Martorano 
We'd love to have you, and it won't be a year and a half before we have you back. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. You're welcome. Thank you, guys, as well. Don't forget wherever podcasts are had, we're there, the Behavioral Corner. See you next time.

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