William F. Merck’s lifetime of experiences contributed to his success in the working world. He began his career path with summer jobs in high school and full-time employment in private and government sectors during college. As a military officer, university vice president, and community board member, he turns his deep knowledge of institutional hierarchies into a masterclass on leadership integrity, risks, and personal accountability. His colorful stories provide practical advice as well as philosophical observations to help anyone who wants to enhance their career as a leader.

Steve Martorano  
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens.

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner. You're invited to hang with us as we discuss how we live today, the choices we make, what we do, and how they affect our health and well-being. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around for a while.

Steve Martorano  
Hi, everybody, welcome again to the Behavioral Corner to me, you are a resident corner denizen, Steve Martorano. What I do is pretend to stand at an intersection and hope I run into interesting people as luck would have it I always do. They're here to tell us well, about a lot of different things. We call this podcast, the Behavioral Corner, a podcast about everything. Because everything affects our behavioral health. And it's all made possible by our underwriting partners Retreat Behavioral Health, You'll find out about that more later on. I don't guess that there's anything more impactful when it comes to the notion of our behavioral health or well-being in general than how old we are, or how young we are for that matter. And that's the topic we're going to address today. Under the umbrella term of "ageism." interesting topic to tell you the truth. Much in the news, as you might imagine, we'll get into that as well. Our guest is Bill Merck. Bill is a former military member, which makes him a veteran. He is a leadership expert who has written spoken and coached extensively in the area of leadership skills, as well as being a published author. He has a lot of insights into ageism. And he joins us on the Corner, Bill. Nice to see you.

Bill Merck 
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Steve Martorano 
Our pleasure. Well, you know, these creaky old bones. Can't wait to hear this stop. Getting older is a remarkable thing. It can be problematic, but it doesn't have to be and I think Bill knows that better than most. He's here to tell us about that. Let's begin with just a sort of expression of what terms mean when we we say ageism, What are some of the characteristics of ageism?

Bill Merck 
Well, ageism is a prejudice. It's something that humans have always had, I think about people who aren't like them, necessarily. And in the workplace, we found that a lot of the hiring officials are more in the middle of the pack, there may be anywhere from 35 to 40, somewhere in there. And a lot of people that are trying to hire are on the two ends of the age spectrum, there may be 20-year-olds looking for their first job 19, or they may be 50-60-year-old, 70-year-old people looking to get either back in the workforce or change jobs. And then there's that prejudice against people that aren't like me, If I'm the hiring official just implied almost I don't really quite realize it. But it'd be good to talk about why that exists and what you can do about it.

Steve Martorano 
Man, I know it. It's important to talk about that. Ageism sounds like an almost reflective behavior, something that you don't even think about it, and it happens. We judge people, we judge people for all sorts of things. Are they too tall? Is it too short? As you say, to classify them, put them in a place where we can allegedly recognize them. And we certainly judge people by their age, we do it consciously and unconsciously. When it's done consciously, when you consciously stereotype someone, on the basis of their age, is that in your view, discriminatory on its face?

Bill Merck 
On his face, certainly, just to eliminate somebody because of their chronological age. Yes?

Steve Martorano 
And yet, if you and I were going to a new physician, and we had the choice between someone fresh out of med school or someone with decades of experience. We judge them on the basis of that and inevitably their age would come in, is that discriminatory? If we decided that the older guy was or the older physician was the better choice.

Bill Merck 
Let's let's let me look at it a little different way. Let's assume that the person doing the high Hiring has got a team, and they're trying to round out their team. And I think they really would want to have, they should want to have someone that's more experienced and been in the job a long time, as well as somebody that's fresh out of med school with some of the latest technology, some of the latest thinking on some of the diseases, or problems you're going to be facing in the medical world. And then if I'm the leader of that team, I'd want to hear, when we're talking about how to handle different patient's problems, I'd want to hear from both I'd want to hear somebody from somebody who's had experience with it. And I'd like to hear from somebody who's got some fresh ideas that maybe the other person might not have. And then I can make a balanced decision as to what to do. So I'm a big believer in having diversity of experience in your team. And so it makes a difference on what you're trying to do with that hire as to whether it would be discriminatory or not.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, you narrow down your options, when you automatically assume that the older person is more experienced and more effective.

Bill Merck 
I didn't say effective.

Steve Martorano 
Experienced anyway, you narrow down your choices. And you do it the other way, by automatically assuming a young guy can't be seasoned enough when you're right, he may have fresher and different perspectives to bring to the task. These are the sorts of things that must come up in your work when you do leadership seminars. Why do you suppose people don't see it that way? Why do they, you know, default to this judgment about how old someone is?

Bill Merck 
Well, I think I think part of it and I wrote some of it, I wrote a book to tell you about earlier called Breadcrumbs: Finding a Philosophy of Life, in I spend a lot of the time in there talking about how our life experiences shape how we view the world, our worldview, or our philosophy of life is shaped by our, experiences, everyone's experiences are unique to them. You and I cannot possibly have had the same exact experiences, even if we had the same parents, we wouldn't have had the same experiences. So those experiences shape how we see things. So when you're hiring people, is really interesting, or should be valuable to you to know a little bit about their experiences, where they're coming from, what's happened to them in their lives, and how that shapes their worldview. And if you're astute, you can actually learn from it, I would certainly learn a lot from you about the experiences you've had, that I never had. And you could learn from me from some of the experiences I had, that you've never had. And then that broadens our view of the world and how we see things. And if you can keep that attitude when you're hiring people, that you don't want clones of yourself, you need somebody that will offer some different opinions based on their different experiences. And then you put it together and make a decision. That is an informed decision. And one that you're comfortable you can live with.

Steve Martorano 
Let's move to the other side of the desk from the managerial side is making these decisions to the person who's trying to get a job. Or talk if you will a little bit about advocating for yourself at either end of the age spectrum, What are some of the tips people should keep in mind?

Bill Merck 
Well, I think, first of all, be authentic. Don't try to be something you're not when you're being interviewed. Now, that doesn't mean ignoring your physical appearance, because as you've probably heard more than once a lot of people make decisions about you the in the first few seconds of meeting you is superficial, that's very superficial. So you want to not have your appearance detract from the message you're trying to convey when you're trying to get hired. Alright, so you dress the part of whatever it is you're trying to.

Steve Martorano 
Let me stop you on that point and make and give I just give you some of what I think is a real-world example. So if you're a younger person, leave the flip-flops and the cargo shorts at home.

Bill Merck 
Exactly.

Steve Martorano 
Okay. And if but if you're an older person over 50, let's say and you're cognizant of appearances. Are you coloring your hair a little bit?

Bill Merck 
No.

Steve Martorano 
You dress a little young? You don't do any of that. No?

Bill Merck 
No, but you don't wear a 30-year-old suit to the interview. I mean, that's fresh and up to date for appropriate to your age.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, yeah. I asked about the hair because I think nothing is a bigger tip-off than somebody for me than seeing somebody of a certain age indeterminate but older, who has, you know, completely the wrong color hair. I mean, the poor guy is trying too hard.

Bill Merck 
Right. Right. Exactly. Right, exactly. Right.

Steve Martorano 
Do you see people making that mistake all the time?

Bill Merck 
Yes, I do actually. Think I want to say something to him, like, you know, please, yes, literally anybody and you're just, you're distracting the person. Look, they're trying to figure out what you're doing with your hair instead of listening to the words you're saying,

Steve Martorano 
Right. It's sort of like, what's he hiding?

Bill Merck 
What is he worried about? Why is he anxious about this, and that sort of thing?

Steve Martorano 
It's an extraordinary thing.

Bill Merck 
I had a person that I worked with years ago whom we were interviewing companies for construction work on big commercial projects. And we would like to have the owner of the company come in, and they would usually dress appropriately wearing a suit, that sort of thing. But then they would introduce us to the person that was going to be on the job site, directing the job, if they came in wearing a suit. This guy was reported to me that was responsible for all this, he would just oh, well, they needed to come in clean now with you know, jeans at work shirt, and that sort of thing, and look the part, not try to be something they're not. They're a superintendent on the job, that's gonna be telling the workers what to do. And they need to look the part. And that's what I mean by dressing appropriately for the interview.

Steve Martorano 
Well, it's a great place to start, What other tools for advocacy would you recommend?

Bill Merck 
Another thing that I did, and I think is smart, is if I'm going in for a job interview, let's say I was going in to be interviewed by you, I would go to the internet has a wealth of information out there. And I tried to find out a little bit about you, what your background is, where you might be coming from, In the interview, I would want to learn a little bit more about the workplace. Who works there? What are they doing? What's the goal of that company? And how can I fit in and tailor my answers in the interview to show my value to that company? If I'm young, let's say, let's say, let's say 65, and I'm trying to get a job. They're already going to have that little bit of bias, I'm gonna have to assume they're going to have that little bit of bias because they see me as an older person. I'm obviously not a digital native. I didn't grow up with technology like some of the younger candidates for the job might have been. But what did I do to add value? And how can I help this company? Well, interviews are a two-way street. First of all, the person interviewing me is going to want to figure out who I am and all that understand. But as being interviewed, I would want to try to figure out what is it they're trying to hire me for. Job descriptions and advertisements are generic, nobody puts their dirty laundry in an advertisement. But they usually have either a problem or some new issue that they're trying to solve with this hire. So you can usually...if you really listen to the person being interviewing you, you can figure out what it is they need. And then you can tailor your experience and what you've done to help them solve these problems. And that goes a long way towards helping you get listened to and get that job.

Steve Martorano 
Is it too often the case that when we go into an interview situation like that, we essentially are there to get something we want in the job without first doing well, What are they want?

Bill Merck 
Exactly? Yes. Yes.

Steve Martorano 
With regard to that, particularly in the older demo, and I understand what you're saying, I mean, it would be a waste of your time to apply for a job that you knew going in you were not suited for in any way.

Bill Merck 
And you wouldn't be happy there either.

Steve Martorano 
Right, even if you got the job would be miserable. But we have lived very recently through an absolutely epic moment in a change in technology. And it has happened so rapidly, that the only people I know that can pick up on it real quickly are 11 to 15-year-olds, so they you know, they seem to get it the minute it happens. But for the rest of it's just a scramble. What do you tell older people looking for, you know, positions with regard to that, I mean, should they go in and act like they know it all or...

Bill Merck 
No. Let's take your example and say this is a high-tech company. They hire a lot of 20-year-olds who have the greatest knowledge about AI and everything else is happening in the world right now. And you don't know that now You should know something about it. And you need to do your homework and learn what it all means and what some of the latest thinking is. But don't try to pretend that you can program a computer to do something that you know, not that much about it, but just generally, but they're probably not going to be hiring you with, I'm assuming you had some experience that got you to know, on your resume, they got you through the door to get the interview to start with, they're probably not going to be looking necessarily for you to be doing the programming or the actual technical work, they're going to be looking for somebody more than likely to help them manage the technical people to figure out some strategy, some tactics to achieve goals. And that's where I think the knowledge of an older person really comes in. They've been through some of the wars before. And they know how they've got better social skills. Usually, they're better at conversing with people. And they're pretty reliable, they're often usually honest, they have a lot of integrity. They can help a company figure out solutions to problems and help them plug in the technical people to do the actual technical work.

Steve Martorano 
With regard to both cases, are younger people looking for work, or people over 50 looking for work? Is there are there tips you can give them for overcoming gaps in their resume? Older person who has some experience, but he's been out of work for a while. What do they do about that gap there? And younger people who really don't have an extensive background in their resume how do they overcome that? What's the best way to proceed?

Bill Merck 
Well, I think it depends to a large degree on what did they actually do during that gap. I don't think a potential employee wants to hear that you had a great trip to Paris and drank a lot of wine and ate some fine food. So what. But if you took a course, if you did some volunteer work, if you spoke in front of groups, what did you do during that gap that kept your skill set up that kept you fresh? And knowing what's going on in the world? You need to show that your current. And what you did during that gap can help you show that. I didn't sit around and watch TV every day. Right? I did something. So what did I do? That kept me on top of things and sharp.

Steve Martorano  
Bill Merck is our guest. He is a published author, a leadership expert, and a veteran. And he's had extensive experience, as you can tell, in talking to people about ageism, and its effect upon us in the workplace and in our lives. With regard to you know, you've emphasized a lot about being yourself and not trying to fool anybody, or older people looking for work, obliged to share their physical health, or they're, you know, their their medical record. I mean, if they...

Bill Merck 
No.

Steve Martorano 
They're not.

Bill Merck 
But sometimes you might want to, if you have some disability that's going to require accommodation is probably a good idea to be...that shows a little bit of honesty on your part. You know, you get the job, but then you show up and say, by the way, I need all of these special accommodations, That's not going to get you off to a good start.

Steve Martorano 
It's better just to be honest with it, if it's going to be a factor you might as well get if...

Bill Merck 
If it's gonna be a factor. Yes. If it's not if it's just the take blood pressure medicine or something. So almost everybody does this over a certain age. So you don't need to get into all of that and make them worry, well, why are they telling me this is there's something more to it, and then they're telling me.

Steve Martorano 
Bill, you've seen the effects of ages of across the spectrum of, of society. I know that before we started recording today, you mentioned some difficulty, I think, with the military and trying to find certain roles, because of this issue. Tell me about that.

Bill Merck 
Well, right now, the the military, the army in particular, I've spent some time with, they have their recruiting pool is 17 to 35. Well, the 17-year-olds need to get parental permission to join 18...but their target group really is 18 to 24. Real that's what they're looking for. Well, what is that group? That's that Gen Z Generation Z that was born in 1996 1997 to 2012. So they're anywhere from 11 years old to 26 years old today. So that's the group that the military is trying to recruit from So the military recruiters, I think, really need to understand what motivates a person in this Gen Z group. And it is very different from past generations. They are again to use that term I used earlier they're "digital natives," and they're very comfortable in the digital world. COVID had a huge impact on them. , a lot of them were hit during the lockdowns missed a couple of years of school, they had to be doing it remotely, that sort of thing, it put them behind academically because they weren't involved in a lot of outdoor activities during that time, they also gained weight. And so they have problems with maybe some of their academic qualifications, their physical qualifications, and then you get into the moral thing did they get into drugs and things like that, during this time? So the pool out of everybody available, only about 23% of those potential recruits meet the Army's minimum standards, which really has narrowed the pool down.

Steve Martorano 
What does that bode for our preparedness going forward?

Bill Merck 
That's a great question. And that's one that the army is working very hard to try to figure out. They have some preparatory courses that they're offering now at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, one just this year started at Fort Benning, and the Navy's going to start rolling up in the Great Lakes is a multi-week course where they go through a lot of exercise routines, and testing and helping them get up to meet the minimum standard. But I think sometimes in the recruiting, the recruiters don't always understand the Gen Z group that they're trying to recruit. Within that Gen Z group, there's a lot of anxiety about their future. They feel financially insecure, many of them weren't able to get jobs during that time, if they graduated, and they were looking for a job, they were kind of frozen out because of the lockdowns and all that. So they kind of got behind. They're worried about going into the military, because they're thinking, oh, gosh, I got to make this great commitment of yours, and I'm gonna get so far behind my peers, I'm never going to catch up. That doesn't have to be true for example, in one of the programs, the army writes that you can join for two years of active duty, and then go into active reserves for two. And so you learn a tremendous amount along the way and have different skill sets and things that you can use in your life afterward. But particularly leadership and self-confidence. Let me say one more thing about this, a lot of the Gen Z group, they're not too good at social interactions. They missed out on a little bit of that during this past time. And so I think the recruiters need to work a little bit to try to figure out what they're trying to say rather than the words they're using. Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
And that isolation or that lack of social skills. They were born into that. I mean, the irony of the Internet has always been that it was supposed to connect everybody. But in fact, it has had just the opposite effect. It has driven people into themselves and into isolation more than connected them. And then as you can imagine the pandemic just closed the door on any interaction. But so one other point about the military and this process you talking about? The military is obviously cognizant of the difficulties here with this generation, should their recruiters be younger? Or should they just be trained better to deal with that age group?

Bill Merck 
I think maybe...either either or both. I think both is important. I went by an army recruiting center just last week, just to see to talk to him a little bit and get a sense of how it is in there. And they did a pretty good job, but I don't think they were quite getting...I mean, I'm older, obviously. I don't think they quite grasp what a Gen Z person is really like. I think they talk too much about the pay. Well, okay, the pay is low. But the benefits are tremendous. And the training they get is tremendous. And there's a whole bunch of other attributes to be in, in the military for a short time. They also, I think, spend too much time talking about a career like committing to us for 20 years. Well, that's just like, Oh, my they're not even 20 yet, and they're talking about, you know, okay, that gets us to the retention, if they can get people in for a short period. And this would go for a civilian organization as well. If you can get people in for a short time. And they start to really like it and you show them the benefits and where it can take them and all that sort of thing. Then you'll keep them and that lessens your need to hire new people if you can retain the people that you get in. It was a real skill to that.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, an important one to say he's talked about the military. Does the issue of...how does the issue of ageism impact the front private sector and a similar situation? They're, they're, you know, an HR person's a recruiter in one sense. They're passing judgment on that. What are some of the things that affect private industry in in this regard?

Bill Merck 
I think it's really important for people who are supervisors to leave any kind of leadership position in the private industry. To keep intergenerational I'll use the phrase, intergenerational communication strong. You don't need to get yourself to where you only want to talk and deal with and work with people that are about your age with your similar background, your similar experiences. And as you get older, that really harms you because then, as you're aging, younger people are starting to take over the managerial roles. And if they don't feel a connection to you, that it's not boding well, for your career. As you get older, you need to show your boss or you need to volunteer for new challenges and new experiences. Show that you're you're learning you're keeping up with what's going on in the world, and that you're relevant. Don't just count on your past performance to carry you to retirement. That's deadly.

Steve Martorano 
What's your feeling on mandatory retirement age?

Bill Merck 
I don't think that's a good thing. I really don't. I mean, there are certain...there are certain areas where that should be. But I can't really even think of one offhand because...

Steve Martorano 
Airline industry? Pilots?

Bill Merck 
I think it depends on their physical health, and, their sharpness. If they can still fly planes really well, and they don't have heart problems that are going to take them out in mid-flight, that sort of thing. Because a young person can have a stroke. I mean, there's...I'm not a big fan of mandatory...

Steve Martorano 
That doesn't surprise me. Finally, on this point, as I said at the beginning of the interview, ageism is much in the news, and the issue revolves around our elected officials.

Bill Merck 
Right, sure.

Steve Martorano 
There is a concerted political attack on the age of the President of the United States. I'm here to discuss whether it's legitimate, but it is in attack mode. He's old. And then we have examples, most recently with the Speaker, I mean, the Republican leader Mitch McConnell and in California, Senator Feinstein, who are very elderly, and not in the greatest shape. What is your take on that? What do they or the people around them do that they're not doing?

Bill Merck 
That's a good question. And I've thought about it a lot. And I think a lot of people have. And I think it's important to separate the political rhetoric from the reality. The political rhetoric is, whoever's in power that you're trying to put out of power, you got to find things wrong with them and try to emphasize those blow them up to the extent that...people react emotionally, to these kinds of things. So if you can get people's emotions worked up, about my God, they're going to down the job, and who's going to take their place? And Oh, that'll be terrible, and all that you can people that's, that's a political strategy. The person in the job, I would hope knows themselves well enough to know, Can I can I really do this, and hopefully, the heat wave, when the time comes, they can't, they will raise your hand and say, I'm out of here. But if they don't, then it's up to the people around them who know them really well on their team to make sure that they leave. Not outsiders who are making stuff up. But insiders who know what's really happening now, with all that said, I think I would look at what kind of team has this person assembled around them. Because, you know, I don't expect President Biden for example, to work 14 hours a day, seven days a week, that's just not even remotely real. But if he's got the experience that he has, and he can surround himself with knowledgeable people, and people that can do the job, and he builds that cohesive team, they can operate without him for some period of time. And that's what we should be looking at. Who's he assembled? What kind of a team does he have? And it's not just the Vice President, but it's all of the other people around him that are that are really carrying the load. And he's just the overseer of that.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. And then at the end of the day, as long as that person whoever it is, can manage to have their wishes fulfilled, the things they think need to be done by delegating it then I suppose that that would be okay.

Bill Merck 
And then the voters should decide if that person's wishes are congruent with their wishes.

Steve Martorano 
Now we get back to what you really should be looking at, do I like these policies? Not as a tool. It's a great analysis. Bill hold up your two...I know you have another book, the name of which I have lost in my notes, but so yeah, so...

Bill Merck 
So, You Want to Be a Leader and this one is really about all the everyday things that people get into in leadership roles, experiences that I've had, and suggestions on how to handle things to help people avoid the landmines that are there in any job, to help people think through what they're going to be faced everything from public speaking to, using the social media to how to handle themselves in a legal deposition, reporters, just all that sort of thing. I think it's really good, handy, how to book.

Steve Martorano 
Your books are available on Amazon and the like.

Bill Merck 
And if anybody's hopefully interested. I've got a website, williamfmerck.com. That goes into all of that, what my books are, what I'm working on.

Steve Martorano 
Okay, great. Well, we'll certainly put that link up on our podcast site so people can access that. Bill this has been great. It's a great topic. You know, obviously a lot about it. And I hope people agree that they've learned something today about ageism.

Bill Merck 
I hope so. I enjoy the conversation. There's always more you can say about any of these topics.

Steve Martorano  
Indeed, thank you so much, sir. And thank you, guys, as well for you're following us and liking us, and subscribing, hit the subscription button. We appreciate that as well. See you later Till next time, on the Behavioral Corner. Bill thanks.

Bill Merck 
Thank you appreciate the time.

Retreat Behavioral Health
Retreat Behavioral Health has proudly been serving the community for over ten years. Here at Retreat, we believe in the power of connection and quality care. We offer comprehensive, holistic, and compassionate treatment from industry-leading experts. Call 855-802-6600 or visit us at www.retreatbehavioralhealth.com to begin your journey today.

The Behavioral Corner 
That's it for now. Make it a habit to hang out at the Behavioral Corner, and when we're not hanging out, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at the Behavioral Corner.