Steve Martorano 

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The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner. You're invited to hang with us as we discuss how we live today, the choices we make, what we do, and how they affect our health and well-being. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around for a while.

Steve Martorano 
Hi, everybody, welcome again to the Behavioral Corner, your favorite Corner hanger router, Steve Martorano, that's who I am. I'm here to direct traffic, I guess. Because you know, the conceit is we're standing on a street corner, waiting for interesting and informative people to enlighten us on a wide range of things. This is a podcast, about everything, because that's what affects our behavioral health. As I always remind you, it is made possible with the financial support of Retreat Behavioral Health, and they are great partners, I've told you this a million times, they're not only a world-class treatment facility for both mental health and substance abuse issues. They're great partners in terms of shaping this program. It's not an infomercial for them, although I highly recommend them. In addition to their financial support, very, very often we reach out to their expert staff and get some really good answers to some tough questions. We're going to take. That's what the case is today with two members of retreat staff, we're going to take a look at something we've looked at from time to time in the past, where from the outside, the legendary 12-step program of Alcoholics Anonymous is thought to be understood by a lot of people. But it really isn't. I think most people who have not been through the program, wonder what the 12 steps are, they know a few of them. I don't think they understand very much I didn't when I was reading about them about how applicable they are to life in general. So we're going to take another look at the 12 steps. We're going to start at the beginning this time and take a look at perhaps one of the most famous aspects of the 12 steps. And that is the Serenity Prayer. And you may have heard that in one form or another, but I think most people recognize it as part of the 12-step tradition. And for those of you who are just coming out of a cave or something, and don't know what the Serenity Prayer is, I'll tell you what it is. It is "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." We're going to bore down into that with Tom Longnecker. Tom has been a longtime contributor to this program. He's a great resource and a good friend of the Corner. And we welcome Tom who was a clinical supervisor at pretreat. And his strong right arm, at least one of them anyway, Mary Cahill. Mary handles the shift supervision for the second shift at Retreat. And they're both here to talk to us about 12 steps. Mary, thanks again. It's been many, many years since you've been on the program. You're a pre-pandemic guest. So welcome back. But before we get to you and your particular take on the prayer, Tom a little bit about the history, as I said, I was surprised to find that it did not originate in AA, but that it is sort of, as I said, a long-standing sentiment among the stoics going back to the Romans. Am I missing anything about the origins of the prayer?

Tom Longenecker 
I think you referred earlier, to the stoics. And I think somebody like a Cetus, that kind of thing. They would really harmonize well with the kind of the basic sentiments and the drift of the prayer. I think probably the scholarship is kind of pointing towards that the mid-century Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr probably authored it, though, he would have been himself really schooled in the classical writings of Greek and Roman classical writings. And so it probably took form in different forms. It took the cross probably 10,15, maybe 20 years. But it seems likely that in some form, he solidified it in some way and got picked up by other sources then early on in the late 1940s kind of found its way into as a real mainstay in the life of the recovering community.

Steve Martorano 
It's sort of like trying to figure out who the author of The Golden Rule was. I mean, is it this is something that's ancient and so obvious, you would think, Mary, give me just a thumbnail of your background with regard to substance abuse? You know, how long-standing was it? How did you arrive at recovery Mary, by the way is eight years now this November 8 years sober congratulations on that. Just a little background about that, Mary?

Mary Cahill 
Oh, so long-standing. It was about 10 to 12 years in active addiction. Started out with being prescribed pain medication that eventually led to other opiates throughout the years. Literally, in my last couple of years, it was heroin. So after about 12 years of being in and out of treatment centers, in and out of unfortunately, incarcerations, being on probation, all these different things, I've actually been to Retreat on three separate occasions. And they are last time in 2015 when I was at Retreat was the very last time I was here and the very last time that I ever had to pick up. So that's where the eight years come from. So it was a long, you know, long-standing, it was a long time of going in and out of treatment centers. It was a long time of putting, you know, family members and family and friends and myself through absolute devastation and hell.

Steve Martorano 
I always say that all stories of substance abuse, and recovery are the same, except they're different. So there's, there are lots of echoes in what you say about your journey. So tell me about your first experience with I take it you're, you got involved in AA at some point? Correct?

Mary Cahill 
Correct. I've been in and out of AA for, I would say, eight, eight to 10 years. So when I get sober. When I would go into treatment centers, I'm not gonna say sober because I really wasn't ever sober. Then other treatment centers, I started going to AA. I found my solution in AA even though I used narcotics or any other substances is where I found my solution was in the Alcoholics Anonymous program.

Steve Martorano 
Can you remember, I'm sure you can your first reaction to your first meeting and in particular, the first time you heard the prayer recited, what was your reaction to that?

Mary Cahill 
I have to say, the first time that I actually heard the prayer I had heard it in, in rehab. And you know, that...this is going back at least 12 years, when I first probably went to my first AA meeting. I don't, I'm not sure that I can say that I actually took to the prayer even actually took a look at myself and what the actual prayer breaks down to. But hearing different...my first, you know, the first thing that you hear is God's word, right? So a lot of individuals in recovery, myself included, when I first came into the program had an issue with trying to find what their higher power is. It could be, you know, I've heard many times in and out of the rooms, you can use, as you know, an acronym, you know, group of drunks, you know, good, good, orderly direction, all these different things, which was helpful for me, I've always had a higher power concept. But at that time, I was angry at my higher power for different things that had happened in my life, so I had to use that. So I had to use what I thought was or what I found to be my higher power in that G O D spot.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, again, if you read up on this enough, you understand what it's I don't want to characterize it as finessing the word. But the word over the decades since AA was adopted it has had to undergo a relationship to not so much religion, but spirituality, and words matter. And I think they understood that someone some level this was off-putting and associated with God, and so expanded it to a broader meaning. At least, that's the way I understand that. You know, Mary, I have read many times that in reading about the prayer, it is simply put a core principle of the program. Do you agree with that?

Mary Cahill 
I do agree with that. So when I look at the Serenity Prayer, there's been many, many times throughout my life in recovery, that I have had to lean on the Serenity Prayer. One in particular...Tom and I were talking about this last week and what I was thinking about maybe the first time that I actually really said the prayer and thought about what I was trying to the situation I was sitting in a courtroom, and I was facing, you know, some legal issues that I had gotten myself into. So you know, that's where the, you know, part of things I can't change. I can't change what the outcome of my sentence was going to be. I did what I did which, you know, to get the different charges that I had, I took responsibility for that. But sitting in that courtroom, you are so riddled with fear. You're, you're fearful of what's going to happen, you're being you know, you're being scolded, you're looked down upon all these different things that come with it, the guilt, the shame. And I remember saying that prayer, over and over in my head, and really kind of breaking it down like things I can't change. This is what I can't change, I can't change the fact that I'm sitting in this courtroom, and I can't change the fact that I did what I did. And now I have to answer, you know, I have to answer to my consequences, I have to answer to it. But I do remember saying it to myself many, many, many times. And throughout that process. And it kind of gave me a sense of I don't want to say it was more of a relief, kind of that I was able to kind of just kind of break it down for myself, and being in AA and working a program and having a sponsor and all these different things. I actually break it down, you know, to when I look at the Serenity Prayer, I think it has four key, themes and values, which are the acceptance piece, the acceptance piece, the courage piece, and the wisdom. Those are the four main things that I myself will zone in on because that's what that's how I have to do it.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. That's a great, great description of your relationship to the prayer time. Prayer is a very mysterious thing. I mean, the way it works, is often miraculous cook. Let's talk a little bit about the psychology of the Serenity Prayer. As I understand it, as one of the core principles of the 12-step program. It goes without saying that complete abstinence is the only way. It's there's no equivocating about it, you must stop that behavior. Is that is that my understanding correctly as a core belief?

Tom Longenecker 
I certainly think that that's been the that's certainly been our general understanding. I would I would phrase it that abstinence is a prerequisite for sobriety.

Steve Martorano 
Okay, well, I raised that in the following context. One of the things that people that I read about in terms of armchair psychology, one of the things people have a very difficult time with is being confronted by something that says, "This is what you must do." Because the automatic human nature response to that is to resist,

Tom Longenecker 
I don't like to be told what to do.

Steve Martorano 
Don't tell me what to do. Now, you see this, by the way, in all kinds of mundane and crazy fashions. I was in Boston years ago when they were fighting over a seatbelt law that was going to make seatbelt use mandatory. And there were people who were passionately opposed to anybody telling them to put on a seatbelt. And I would sit and go, I must be losing my mind. Why would you resist that? Well, it's a natural inclination. The prayer says, "Except for things I cannot change." How does that work into this notion that will, except for this, the sign says, "Stop."

Tom Longenecker 
Right.

Steve Martorano 
So how does that work?

Tom Longenecker 
Yeah, so I think let's actually even step back because the primary piece that it kind of all rolls out of is, grant me the serenity grant me the peace. Okay. Which, you know, when I'm in a state of disrepair, okay, if I'm in a very anxious place, if I'm really rattled, I'm not making my best decisions. Okay. So I think part of this is the prayer is a request of find a place where I'm grounded when I'm clear. When I'm not riddled with all those doubts and all the other things that attack me are not so loud. And that's kind of the basis then, if I'm in that place, I can handle a lot of things that come to me. I can handle a lot of challenges I can handle a lot of just the difficulties of life that come to me, and then the next piece so that I can accept that.

Steve Martorano 
Let me ask Mary when she's working her way towards sort of a clear moment when she's accepting things that she cannot change. Mary was one of the things you felt you couldn't change was your use, you know, I mean, here you were in the grip of this disease, it seemed intractable. And yet you're praying to accept things you cannot change? How it was, was that confusing when you first looked at it?

Mary Cahill 
I wouldn't say confusing. So in my addiction, and I'm, and I can't speak for everybody else. But for my addiction, right? There's, I think everyone, every alcoholic, and addict, that times will think to yourself, like, I can't change this. Either you can't change your addiction, because it's hard to stop. It's hard to stop because you're physically addicted to a substance. So it's hard to stop and sometimes, and I can say this for myself, many times, I thought to myself, will I ever get sober? Or is this how I'm going to die? You know, and that's a part where you look at it, well, can I change it? Yes, you can. You know, I know that now. But in active addiction, it's hard for someone to grasp that you know, to wrap your mind around. Because, you know, you're going through detox, you're not feeling great. You're all these emotions that you've been covering up for many, many years, are all flooding back. And it's, you think to yourself, do I, first of all, is this going to happen? Or, number two? Do I even want to, you know, so there's always a, there's always things that you can change. And, and in AA, it's, and these are things that I also tell other people in AA, and also, you know, people that I, you know, clients that I work with here at Retreat, it's like we have to symbolize this, we have a choice. Yeah, we can change these things, there is a choice. We have to make it very, very simple. It's either we pick up or we don't, there's no gray area in between.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, that's what we were talking about earlier. There's the absolutism of this is you should be very, very clear. Once you work your way through that. I think other things may fall into place. Tom, the prayer doesn't mention directly surrender. But there is a component of surrender in this. If that's correct what are we surrendering?

Tom Longenecker 
I wonder if some of the resonance with this prayer with the early aid community is the quote, I forget what page it's in, in the Big Book, acceptance, we, you know, we find that acceptance is the answer to all of our problems. And so part of this issue of surrender is, the reality is, this is where I'm at today, am I detoxing? Am I feeling miserable? There's a level that I accept reality as it is without trying to remake reality. Tomorrow might be different, but I have to accept the realities of today without forcing my ego, my will, on things that are truly unrealistic for me to change. So that whole part of the surrendering to reality because I live in a facade, I live in a fantasy.

Steve Martorano 
Okay, because so many people look at that when they hear about surrender and giving yourself over to either a god or a greater power. This notion that you're surrendering and sort of surrendering to the problem, you know, which is, it's not exactly the way I understand what you just described. Tom, just this one other thing about the psychology, the prayer, we mentioned that when you tell somebody, they cannot do something and that there's, there's just no argument about it, you cannot do it. The natural inclination is to resist in order to overcome that. I think and correct me if I'm wrong, what most people do is look at an admonition and say, "Well, maybe freedom isn't the only thing that matters here. Maybe there's something even better than just being free not to wear a seatbelt." And then they begin the rationalization process that goes on. It's sort of inherent in this prayer that you can rationalize your way through it.

Tom Longenecker 
I think I think that's perfect. Yes. I mean, because part of this simply is one. I can reject or accept other people's experiences because that's kind of what the early people in AA found. Abstinence was a prerequisite that was That was the path. That's what they found. Their own experience was when people were not abstinent, they did not. Life continued in the old patterns. But here we have that kind of sense of, can I understand, you know, what happens if I try this on? Can I try this? Try it, can I try, accept, and so on. And if I try it a little bit, what opens up to me, and that really is an invitation as opposed to a dictate. And I think that's part of what, that's one of the challenges that we hear surrender, and we think of it as kind of an obedience to a dead spot. Right? Whereas really, it's really kind of an invitation. And I think the, you know, the prayer is, as we, as you said earlier, it's nothing really new. It's, it's phrased in a very memorable rhythmic pattern that pieces things together. And that's probably where it's his genius lies. If there's any genius there. Does it lay out acceptance Can I have serenity in a place of peace, so that I can accept, so that I can have courage so that I have wisdom?

Steve Martorano 
You know, by the way, and a backup here, just a second about rationalization. I'm going to do a show on that one day because I think it's an underappreciated human trait. I don't know anybody who can't get through a day without at least a couple of meaty rationalizations. It's just another way of making sense, I guess of a crazy, chaotic world. So let's move a moment here. To this notion of, Mary, is it applicable to the prayer that is, is it applicable in your everyday life, apart from its utilities? In sobriety?

Mary Cahill 
Absolutely. There's a lot of things regardless, you know, and this is hard for individuals to kind of grasp that. Even when you get sober doesn't mean that life stops, everything is great, and you're not going to encounter challenges. So prayer works in my life, on a daily basis. Now, I'm not saying that I'd probably repeat it to myself as many times as I did in early recovery, but it still plays a part in my life on a daily basis with different challenges that come about, you know, just, I mean, over the last year, I've had a lot of, you know, family challenges with, you know, my mom who's elderly, so like, different things that have been going on in my life. You know, I'm in school, I work full time, like, there's just so many different things. The serenity and prayer are present in every single day, of my life, regardless of what I'm going through. So it doesn't need to just be said out loud.

Steve Martorano 
In other words, you've internalized this prayer, it's not like you're going around, going around saying it to yourself, when confronted with a dilemma. I think that's another thing that's brilliant about it, there's something so hard-headedly, obvious about this, look, there are things that are going to happen, you can't do anything about Don't fret over them. First of all, be able to identify them, and then see what you can change what YOU can change, that might relieve the entire switch, and make the situation a little better. Tom, again, goes back to the use of something like the Serenity Prayer, which as we said, has been around forever. From a clinical standpoint, can people who are suffering from let's say, depression, or anxiety, benefit from the Serenity Prayer, and how?

Tom Longenecker 
Certainly, I think, particularly with anxiety, because depression tends to really give us tunnel vision. So we see fewer and fewer options, but I think it could speak to that as well. But so much of this, so much of the teaching, or the practice of this kind of prayer, is bringing it mindfully to ourselves. We're where I begin, and where I end, what I'm responsible for, who I'm responsible to, and also that there are limits to that. So some of this is giving permission to other people to continue in whatever they're doing without me trying to own or manage their own problems and their own way through life. So I think very directly, the ongoing mindful practice of of this prayer and what it holds, when that's put into practice, when that's put into play certainly speaks directly to things like anxiety and other kinds of mental health, mental issues. Some of that is also a direction back to some self-compassion. If I'm in the midst of a major depression, this is not a justification for my behavior. But it permits me to have some other understanding of where I'm at in my own life and give some compassion to that state. Here I am accepting the circumstances of this place right now, which is not about tomorrow, but it's right now, and making decisions that are grounded in the here and now.

Steve Martorano 
I am a bit confused though about the situation where someone in let's say, for instance, a manic episode, would try to rely upon this prayer for them to do the two things, identify, and then change what they can. Is that a loss to do it because the tool they will use is impaired? How do you break through that cycle?

Tom Longenecker 
Well, and here's the thing I don't, I think there is you talked earlier, you know, there are certain practices that we we can be involved in, be it prayer, meditation, even walking, there are certain things we do that sometimes it's beyond the actual act that we do. And we have to kind of leave some...some movements, some opening for something greater than ourselves to move into. I've worked with people who are in the midst of psychosis, and mania or other kinds of things, where they're not in a rational grasp of their own self. And yet, through this kind of thing through other kinds of practices through this prayer, or other prayers or mantras, they are able actually to find some moment of relief and peace, that allows them a little break...breakthrough of sanity. And I really can't explain that...I can't really explain that except that there are things that we do that maybe open us to being able to find peace that we can't generate and create on our own.

Steve Martorano 
Tom Longnecker and Mary Cahill from Retreat Behavioral Health are our guests. You guys have been great about about something that a lot of us think we know a lot about serenity prayer. But this is for me a deeper understanding of, as I said, its utility beyond just not just but beyond its role in AA. Finally, this to both of you, does it remain a good thing? Or is it somehow not so good, that this is thought of as a prayer? Rather than I don't know a slogan or something else? Mary, you're obviously past the notion that this is you talking to God, and more philosophy. Do you think more people need to think that way?

Mary Cahill 
I think it's a personal thing. I think everyone is at a different level in their recovery. And they can choose to call it a prayer, or they can just choose to call it a slogan. I mean, we have a lot of different slogans and sayings in, in the program in both AA, NA all the different, you know, anonymous programs that are out there, there's tons of slogans. So I think it's a personal thing. If you feel comfortable, and it works for you to say, this is a prayer that I say, then that's great. If you want to say, you know, this is a slogan that I choose to live by or a mantra that I choose to live by whatever works for the individual, I think that is the best way to kind of look at it. You can't say for me, it's it's a prayer.

Steve Martorano 
Tom. Tom, as you know, there are people who do not believe in prayer. Correct? So they run into this and whether you substitute a greater power for God, it seems to clearly be talking to something bigger than us, people. Some people reject the notion that there isn't anything bigger than us. What do you say to somebody like that?

Tom Longenecker 
Again, I looked at this as an invitation. In the the 12-step community, they talk about a power greater than a power greater than ourselves of our own understanding, which is truthfully, really about, that's basically universal, we all believe or don't believe in a power greater than ourselves. And that we can understand. That's basically what we all do. From what I understand, that's what I believe. I would say that, to challenge that there are people who have found wisdom in this. If, the words are challenging, they can they can lay them aside, there might be other things they might find. They might look at that as an opportunity to try to explore a little bit why that's a challenge for them and how they can make some sense of it. Nonetheless, you kind of come back to a clinical perspective, we do a lot of acceptance, commitment therapy, this is a really good tool for people to you know, in what we talked about in the matrix, the decision point, to be able to move away from away moves towards moves back down to certain key values. So I think even you can take it outside of its spiritual and religious connotation. And maybe that's still a challenge to people and if it is, I think it's always worth for to explore that for people to have an even better understanding of their opposition. I think greater depth is one of the things we always can get from this.

Steve Martorano 
It's a great topic. We could I could talk at length about this. You guys have been terrific. Mary. Thanks so much. It's been a long time. Good to see you're prospering. They're holding up the fort at your end of it. And Tom, as I say, is always a great resource for the program. It's the Serenity Prayer. I hope you Know more about it now than when we started. And we'll probably return to this cuz there are just a number of interesting topics that come to mind. I just have to figure out which ones I can do and which ones I can't do and the wisdom to know the difference I guess. Tom Longencker or Mary Cahill retreat behavior. Oh, thanks so much, guys. Appreciate it. And you guys, thank you as well for your time and patience and you know the whole drill. Follow us like us. We're everywhere you find podcasts and you can find podcasts anywhere, Hit the subscription button. We love that and see you next time on the corner.

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