Ep. 19 - Will Erdman Interview Transcript

The Behavioral Corner 

Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while.

Steve Martorano 

Wow, where does the time go? I like I hang on the corner here, sometimes and spout cliches. And any of that we do more than that. We welcome you again to the Behavioral Corner, where we sit on the stoop, lean up against the lamppost, see who we run into, and maybe generate some, some conversation that will help you better understand what this program is all about. It's inherent in the title. Behavioral is the keyword behavioral health is the area that we are concerned with here on the corner. It net is a big, big topic. It's very often associated in the past with us anyway, with the issue of substance abuse, treatment, and recovery. We've now expanded beyond that to take in a wider area that includes a lot of mental health issues as well. I hope you know that we are underwritten and supported by our partners in this endeavor, Retreat, Behavioral Health, and you'll hear more about them a little bit down the road. The mental health piece, though, is what we focus on a lot in this month, in October, believe it or not, is upon us. Actually, I don't know, we should probably be counting in COVID time. But anyway, it is National Mental Health Month. So we're going to take a particular look at that with our guest on the corner, Will Erdman. Will is right now celebrating or will be very shortly, three years of sobriety. He has a story for us about that journey, as well as the work he does now as a recovery coach. And it's bigger than that. Will, thanks for joining us on the corner.

Will Erdman 

Thanks so much, Steve, I really appreciate you having me on giving me the opportunity to give back a little here.

Steve Martorano 

We appreciate your time. So here's the deal. You told me prior to us getting together that you're going to have an anniversary coming guess is December three years sobriety, congratulations on that many more celebrations ahead. Can you take us through a little bit about yourself? You know, where'd you grow up? What was the family like? And how did you slip into the disease of addiction?

Will Erdman 

Sure. So I grew up in the Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania, a really great family, you know, my parents have been married for like 43 years, I never wanted for anything, you know, private school, all the things...all the nice things as a child...sports activities, and, you know, based on what some other people, you know, experienced and lead them into addiction, like I had an awesome childhood. So that just kind of, to me is a testament to like, you know, mental health and addiction do not affect, you know, affects anybody. It doesn't discriminate. I, I don't know, I got started drinking and using high school just as a social thing. And I think I was always trying to fill some type of void, and that filled that void. And then, you know, from high school into college, everything just escalated to the point where I was, you know, daily drinking and morning drinking and using. And you managed to make it through college and do pretty well. And then when I hit, you know, the adult world and had like ultimate, you know, freedom. That's when things really started to go down.

Steve Martorano 

How old are you now, Will.

Will Erdman 

I'm 38. 

Steve Martorano 

Okay. So you're the bulk of the problem began, you know, out of that adolescence in your teen years as you grew up, you talk about this void, you are filling. We've heard that so many, many times. Do you have brothers and sisters, by the way?

Will Erdman 

I do I have one younger sister, Mary Kay.

Steve Martorano 

And did she ever had any problems with regards to substance abuse?

Will Erdman 

No, she hit the ground running. She's finishing her last year of Orthopedic surgical residency and about to enter a fellowship out in California. Never had any addiction issues. So yeah, again.

Steve Martorano 

It's randomness. Yeah, it's just the randomness of this thing. It's why it's so not only mysterious but insidious. So the void, I've heard that so many times filling up something, you know, most people most youngsters in my experience or experiment with substance abuses do so early on in a social context, just as you described, hey, this is what we do when we hang and suddenly somebody in that group or more than one, somebody finds their behavior accelerating, you know, past that. Do you say filling a void? What kind? Can you articulate what it was that you didn't feel hole about that needed to be filled with drugs or alcohol?

Will Erdman 

Sure. So like you mentioned, I think, you know, it started socially, that it was like, what we do you know, what our friend group did. And as I got older, I think what happened was, I started to do things that like we're not, you know, based on the principles I was raised with, I started to like, do, you know, I had negative behaviors, and then I would kind of view myself as like, not a good person. And then when I use and drink, I would actually do more things that I didn't want to do. And that would reinforce like, you're a bad person. Like, you do shady things, like things like that. And that I think was like, kind of the Void I was filling is like, I thought I was, I thought I was a bad person. I didn't identify as being sick and having a problem. So that would feel like that would make me feel better. But then ultimately, you know, it was in a vicious cycle that I'd ultimately like it was I do something negative or bad. I'm like a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Steve Martorano 

Yep. Yeah, it is, again, the endless fascination with the disease of addiction, and the effect it has on us, people in general, but certainly with their mental health, you talk about, I mean, you were aware that the behavior engaging in was bad. You weren't, you're blind, you didn't think it was good that you were doing these things. And yet you were powerless over the addiction. And we think of that in terms of well, you know, I don't know, did you progress to how far did it go here? What were you abusing the end?

Will Erdman 

I had sometimes sober, like sort of, three years and relapse and kind of bounce in and out and then you know I was dating a young lady who we relapse together after a short period of sobriety. And she introduced me in my early 30s, to intravenous heroin use. And that was what my, you know, for a year really epic relapse was about. Heroin, crack, alcohol. I overdosed 13 times in four years.

Steve Martorano 

Wow. You see, we're playing in the bigs. Right?

Will Erdman 

Yeah, it was no joke. I'm playing I'm very lucky to be alive.

Steve Martorano 

Thirteen ODS and we're gonna, we're gonna get into this deeper now. So I'll just hold it here for the second but raise it so you'll know where we're going. And that is during that process? What? It's going to sound like an odd question, what was your frame of mind? What was your mental health, you're doing things that are self-destructive, and going to lead already had lead to a bad place and could lead to your death? What was your mental frame of mind in that's really what we're going to focus on a little later? So, when you find you've in and out of rehab, I'm sure during this period of time, correct? 

Will Erdman 

Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 

It took many times for you. I mean, you say you've relapsed. So now you're into going into three years? What is it about the times when you do manage to get a hold of the disease that you think is working for I mean, what what what point did you reach where you went? I got to try it again.

Will Erdman 

So I couldn't really articulate, like, what happens and that I do think, you know, it's, it's whatever your higher power is, God, I think that I do think like God intervenes in some way and allows me to just like, open my mind enough to, to listen to something, you know, like, the first time I got sober, it was like, I actually went into an after multiple treatments, went into a meeting, raise my hand and asked for help. Coming out of the four-year relapse, and the sobriety, you know, being sober now that again, like, I'd been overdosing and in and out of treatment, and I did, you know, the empty chair, which is like a clinical group, where they like, literally leave a chair empty. And that's like, the addict doesn't make it back. And for the first time, in four years, like, that connected with me emotionally, so I knew for years, intellectually, like I was a heroin addict, and I was maybe gonna die if I kept up like this. But it didn't like hit me in the heart to like, that moment. I can't explain that other than, you know, there's, there's God or some higher power at work there.

Steve Martorano 

Well, you know, that process and always, when I hear that story, and it's very familiar. I don't, don't push it too hard, because it's looking a gift horse in the mouth, you know, I mean, it's almost beside the point. But people who are still struggling need to know that at least, or not, at least in many cases, people do reach that moment. I've heard it referred to as clarity. You know, something like, well, this isn't working. Let me try something else. So you know, I get that. It does. It does remind us though, about the mind is a very, very powerful tool. Not only towards bad behavior towards salvation when you think about it. This led you then to your current work, I suspect, and tell us about what you're doing right now.

Will Erdman 

So I'm very lucky and very grateful. I work for two great organizations. One Berkshire Transition Network. So that's the men's extended care facility in the Berkshires, in Massachusetts, like a beautiful area. And it's a group of folks like myself, skilled coaches, helping these guys kind of find like a more fulfilling life, like in life worth staying sober for finding a sense of community and finding a recovery plan that works for them, and then ultimately, transitioning back into the road world to live. So that's, yeah, that's my full-time job. I also am a part-time recovery coach for DynamiCare Health, which started at a tech company out of Boston, doing remote testing, so like Bluetooth, breathalyzers. Then they rolled CBT, you know, therapy based modules, and that seemed to help members. Then about a year ago, they really concentrated on bringing coaches like myself into work with these numbers on a weekly basis. And all of the numbers across the board spikes people were doing more breathalyzers, passing more breathalyzer showing up to more therapy appointments. And both companies are kind of on the younger side, like, you know, roughly five years, they've been, you know, in place. And just such open-minded like, both groups are like, open to feedback, looking to change looking to help people. It's just the work I do is amazing. And the companies I work for doing it is are just as amazing.

Steve Martorano 

Tell me that some of this testing, did I understand you to say that it's being done remotely?

Will Erdman 

Yeah. So yeah, DynamiCare Health, it's, you know, the premise of it is, it's an app on your phone. And then it's built on either a text-based coaching platform or, you know, like phone calls. And then Bluetooth breathalyzer, so you're prompted to do a test, you blow into the Bluetooth breathalyzer. And the results immediately hit the phone, which sends them to our server, and then we can track all that stuff on the back end. The other component of that is a rewards-based system, which, you know, I'm not a doctor or neurologist, I can't get into all the brain stuff here. But it helps to rewire the past in your brain getting these, you know, kind of small, you might get like two or $3, for a successful breathalyzer. And then that money stacks up all month to like in the neighborhood of $150. But that reward creates a more strong positive pathway in the brain to keep doing positive things. 

Steve Martorano 

Right. So this isn't about trying to make money by getting sober. This is a conditioned response. Is that what you're trying to accomplish? Is that good behavior?

Will Erdman 

Yeah. You know, if going to a meeting is helpful to you. And then like when you walk out like the app tells you like you were in the meeting, great job $3 Award. And that kind of stuff happens repeatedly over months. Combined with like a skilled coach working with you to work through your recovery plan. It helps you stay on track, and it helps the brain rewire. Based on being rewarded. So yeah, like condition. Like you said.

Steve Martorano 

That's a remarkable app, how do people find that app if they want it is there the Apple App Store?

Will Erdman 

Yeah, it's available in the App Store. So if you went in and search DynamiCare Health, it'll pop up. The initial app is free. So you download it for free. And then you can upgrade to you know, the level of services that you're interested in. So again, text-based coaching or calls, you know, remote testing, we have family support services, pretty comprehensive tool. We actually, you know, Berkshire Transition Network use it when folks are traveling or when they either moving out and moving into the real world, it's a great way to create another layer of accountability for them and allow them to transition fully back into the real world, but still have accountability.

Steve Martorano 

I've been waiting for a long time. And I knew it was a matter of time. Before you know, those people who sit around figuring this stuff out, we're going to come up with an app-based program that would help people. This sounds like a really good one. Let me ask you this. This has always been something in my head. Would it be possible to have an app with you know, with GPS capabilities now being where they are with someone in active addiction or someone in recovery, but they're, you know, worried about being triggered? Could they put in locations that they know they should stay away from and if they were to go to them? It would send a maybe a message to their coach

Will Erdman 

The app already does the ring bar so you put you enter an or we enter in like you have a therapy appointment at 101 Main Street and the phone knows when you walk in the door, and if you're on time and if you leave early or not. So I'm sure you know, we have a great team of engineers at dynamic care. So I'm sure they could like, figure out a way to reverse that, that if you walk into the bar, it's 103 Main Street, right? Like emails and tech and stuff like that. But you're not where you should be.

Steve Martorano 

If I were doing this (this sounds terrible). If I were doing this, I would figure out a way to have a message pop up a video message from the person that means most of your kids, your wife, or somebody a pre-recorded message saying "Do not please, Dad, please." And see if that has an effect. You know what, as we have heard countless times, there is an app for everything. We're talking to Will Erdman when he is a recovery coach doing great work, not only for other people but in maintaining his sobriety now, after a pretty rough and serious bout with the disease of addiction.

Retreat Behavioral Health 

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Steve Martorano 

So Will, you know because we've spoken about this before you came on the corner with us that it's National Mental Health Month. We are going to take a look at that in all sorts of various ways throughout the next couple of weeks. But this is a perfect opportunity to kind of demonstrate that there is a huge mental health component. Regarding sobriety, everything you've just described strikes me as an attempt to use one of the most powerful tools we have to straighten our lives out no matter what the problems are. And that's our mind. I mean, that's all we have, at the end of the day, we only have our own ability to think, and then hopefully reason our way out of any kind of problem. In your experience personally and in your work, you find that without even thinking about it, mental health is at the forefront of these efforts?

Will Erdman 

Absolutely. So it's very common in my experience. Personally, like I'm not actually diagnosed with clinical anxiety, or medicated, but certainly, like leading into, I think my act of addiction, my life was run based on fear and anxiety and stress. And that was another reason I would use to try to push that stuff out, you know, and just, I wasn't living...I was just maintaining. And then on the flip side, you know, the work I do now being in the field, very commonly, we see folks that struggle with those types of mental illnesses, and that's kind of like, lead them into addiction, we work with the Center for Motivation and Change, which is very probably one of the most trauma aware treatment facilities in the country. And there, you know, trauma is a huge lead into addiction. So when you put the drink in the drug down, that is like, in itself, a very difficult task and takes like a lot of support as you're probably well aware. But that's really just the beginning of the work if you are struggling with mental health issues, whether it's trauma or anxiety or, or whatever it is out there. Especially because, you know, being an active addiction or alcoholism kind of mask, what's really going on. And then you put that down in there like "Alright, what are we actually dealing with here?"

Steve Martorano 

You know, that's very widely misunderstood, but by the public at large. They can understand when they hear someone who knows a little bit about this like yourself, "Well, you know, just because they're you're not using doesn't mean everything is going to be okay." It confuses people." What do you mean, though, I thought the problem was the use." And as you point out, it's more like a matter of infestation of these underlying problems, it's now referred to in the field widely, and has been for a long time as a co-occurring disorder, correct?

Will Erdman 

Correct. A lot of times with, especially if it's something like mental health that you really struggle with, you're self-medicating through drugs and alcohol. So, you know, when you put the drug alcohol down, sometimes it's like actually worse because you're no longer self-medicating these mental health challenges. And that's where, like, it's really important to have a team of professionals helping you, whether it's, you know, coaches and therapists, or doctors, like, you know, whatever your team needs to consist of having the right help make sure that you're approaching this correctly.

Steve Martorano 

You know, neither of us are physicians or psychiatrists, and I don't expect you to be one. But you, you know, you have a world of experience of a lifetime of it. I wonder if you think, at the end of the day, substance abuse is some sort of mental illness?

Will Erdman 

That's a tough one. But like you said, I'm not a doctor and I have a very loose grasp on any kind of neurological knowledge. Certainly, mental health challenges lead to addiction very often, or through like, year after year of, you know, having addiction and alcoholism issues, I think you can kind of create mental health issues. It's kind of like a vicious cycle. Yeah, I had a friend speak the other day at a meeting for me, and she has anxiety. And she's like, "I knew by drinking, that I was making my anxiety worse, but then I was also able to medicate it away with alcohol at times, too." So it's like a vicious cycle as an exam. I don't know if it's actually a, you know, considered mental health. That's the answer that's beyond me. But certainly, they go.

Steve Martorano 

That's okay. You and I are just on the corner, who cares what people think? Because I'll tell you the truth. I mean, I have to look at the diagnostic manual to see what they officially say. You know, if mental illness is behaviors, or attitudes, or thoughts that are making you miserable, self-destructive, unhappy, suicidal, whatever, if that's kind of a definition of mental illness, not to, you know, over medicalize old behavior, but I always thought something like racism, deeply. hateful racism is just a mental illness, there's just no other way to describe a mind that would operate like that. And when you look at the behavior of addicts who are doing things that are clearly going to kill them, but they continue to do it after you dispense with the physical craving you need to go, "How in the world, what are they thinking about?" It's why we talk about mental health issues. They're so important. One of the things I know that a coach is very, very concerned about is helping their client with coping strategies. What are some of the coping strategies? and What relationship do they have with mental well being?

Will Erdman 

I think one of the kinds of the most important component of like the 10,000-foot view is building community, or having a group of friends and a team of professionals around helping you through both your path you know, away from addiction, alcoholism, substance use, and then dealing with the mental health that, you know, maybe a result are still present after. That's one of the most important things that I don't know if I call it a coping skill, but I think you're able to use that community to cope. And then on top of that, I think it's really important to find something you love or things you love to do, and use those as coping skills. 

Steve Martorano 

Community is so important. I've heard stories over and over again, it is, by the way, the core value or benefit of something like AA which, strictly speaking, is not a treatment for alcoholism, but a support system to abstain from from from using alcohol. And it's so fascinating thing about community, what's the expression, "Misery loves company." And that's true, that's true when you're inactive addiction. And then ironically, turns out to be even more true and more important, when you're in sobriety. It's not so much that misery loves company, but sobriety loves company It's a very reinforcing thing. And again, it goes back to the way we think affects the way we behave. Well. I hope you will use your experience in this when someone is taking those first steps towards you know, sobriety, and they're trying to deal with that. how vulnerable are they in a mental health capacity? I mean, you got to be strong physically to resist the temptations in the cravings? Did you wake up fearful every day? What was the experience in your head as you started to build sobriety?

Will Erdman 

So I think while early sobriety is amazing, and it's probably like, when the way my path when I was, you know, first sober, I had that community. So I had, you know, air quotes "a team of advisors" around me kind of telling me what to do initially. So it's probably one of the more simple times, you're not making like a ton of decisions for yourself, and you have a lot of support. But as far as what's going on, in your mind, it's terrifying. Because I just, you know, intensely took my biggest coping mechanism for life, which is drugs and alcohol out of the picture, how do I do anything? Like how do I date? How do I go to the food store and deal with a long line, like, any normal life tasks, you know, in the end, like everything I did in life involve drugs and alcohol? So trying to navigate life in early recovery, even when you have people trying to help you through it can be mentally terrifying, because your coping mechanism is gone. And you have to rebuild a life with new coping mechanisms. To your point earlier with the question about coping, and what you use.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, taking the substance abuse piece out of the equation, and looking at someone just suffering from mental illness in the form of things like anxiety, or dealing with associated trauma, very often people will be just medicated for that. They will just be prescribed, you know, benzodiazepines, I guess, or whatever, to manage the mental health piece with someone who is also trying to remain sober. That can be a tricky road. Right?

Will Erdman 

Absolutely. And that's, you know, why if, you know, if you're trying to get sober, or you know, somebody listening helps to try to help a family member, you know, with this path, it's really important to have really good professionals and to be fully transparent with them about, you know, the issues that you're having, you know, if you're trying to stay sober, and you struggle with anxiety, and the doctor gives you a benzodiazepine, which in my mind is like alcohol in a pill form, that's really not going to help you much, while it might, physiologically or pharmacologically help you with anxiety may not be the solution to help you stay sober. But maybe it is like, that's why, you know, you really have to have a good team of professionals, we have to be really honest with them about what's going on.

Steve Martorano 

The other aspect of how complicated the system is the societal point of view is that, particularly joint down economies is the one we're facing now, which will probably deepen, is this notion of homelessness, and its association with substance abuse. Too often, we think, almost exclusively, that these people who are homeless, are probably overwhelmingly also addicted to substances. While that may be true, on a certain level, they are also probably far more likely to be mentally ill, correct?

Will Erdman 

Yeah, I don't have a strong level of experience with the homeless or the unhoused. But in my limited knowledge, I think you're absolutely right.

Steve Martorano 

Well, the idea of this, this app-based testing and counseling, and using it as a tool for transitions into a sober life is a fascinating and as I said, we hope there'll be more work in that regard because one of the other phenomenons here is I have noticed people with serious substance abuse issues, may lose everything...everything. Family, friends, money, dwelling. They always have their phone, they need that phone, that phone connects them with the phone connects them with their high. Right? They already have a phone. And they're looking to get mentally stable enough to fight addiction, something like an app-based program. And by the way, it's not you're not suggesting that you can only do this with an app. But it certainly is, it can be a powerful use of technology. We really appreciate you coming on and telling us about that. And before I let you go, we'll please tell people how they can get more information about the group she worked for, in the Berkshires, because this program is heard all over the place, and particularly about the app once again where they can get more information.

Will Erdman 

So the group that I work for the men's extended care facilities and the picturesque Berkshire's is known as Berkshire Transition Network. So you can find us on the web. And then the group that I mentioned, the app is DynamiCare Health. So that app is available in the app store and dynamic care also has a substantial website where you can click through and see more about that. So both groups are on the web, the DynamiCare Health app is in the App Store and can be downloaded. The initial download is free, and then you kind of go from there.

Steve Martorano 

Will Erdman, thanks so much for joining us in the behavioral corner. It's really very interesting talking to you continued success in your work, and of course in your sobriety, and we'd love to have you back again sometime soon.

Will Erdman 

Absolutely, just let me know. Again, I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to share a little bit, and hopefully, if people are out there struggling, this might help someone and I appreciate your time.

Steve Martorano 

Thank you. Hey, everybody. We'll see you next time on the corner.

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