The Behavioral Corner 

Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while.

Steve Martorano 

Well, 2020 a year, which no one will remember as a day at the beach is coming to a conclusion I trust it will. It has been, by anybody's estimation, a horrible horrible year. And you know, you know the litany natural disasters, civil unrest, violence, and a worldwide pandemic, to boot. Anyway, stresses have occurred on every individual and institution as a result of all that, not only here in the United States, but all over the world. Law enforcement is no stranger to those stresses. They feel it may be more acute than any other institution. We're gonna find out what's going on with the police, how they're dealing with this year, and life as a law enforcement officer in general. This time on the Behavioral Corner we're really fortunate to have with us a fellow who knows a little bit more than a little bit about police work in law enforcement and the problems associated with that. Govan Martin is a 29-year veteran of law enforcement is a member of the Pennsylvania State Police. He is now retired from active law enforcement but he certainly in no way forgotten about that area. He is actively involved in has been throughout his career in peer support programs. He was the head of that for PA State Police for over a decade. He's instrumental in making sure that police get the right kind of treatment and can deal with the stresses of the job. He is particularly involved in suicide prevention, the figures for which law enforcement people try or commit suicide are staggering. So we're gonna get into all of that with our guests on the behavioral corner. Govan Martin, III. Govan, thanks for joining us.

Govan Martin III 

Absolutely. Thanks for the offer. I'm honored to be talking

Steve Martorano 

Govan? Is that Gaelic?

Govan Martin III 

Actually "Govan" is from what my grandfather says is French. I am the third and probably last Govan in my family. I get asked that all the time and then you know I've had various people send me information about the name Govan. I've had a metal priest actually who was from Scotland. He said it's actually a Scottish word and it means common or which he found hilarious. I've also had somebody say it was Welsh. And it means strength. So I'll take any definition as long as it's good. Yeah, it is one of those actually, names that people always tend to screw up but at the same time, you know, you know when I always do when in school when they're gonna you know, call my name because they always had that hesitation that the first time.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah. It's very, it's a very cool name, but it does look like some letters were left off. But anyway, I just wanted to find out about that. Let's begin at the beginning with you 29 years as a member of the Pennsylvania State Police. How do you come from a law enforcement background family? How did you get involved?

Govan Martin III 

Yeah, my, my, my dad was a Pennsylvania State Trooper also and he stayed in 28 years. And a lot of ways I wanted to follow in my dad's footsteps and, and my dad was a legend at the Academy, who I think to work there his last 14 years. And actually, he got into the first class of peer support, you know, inspired me then to do the same once I, you know, kind of got my feet wet in the whole scheme of the regularity of being a police officer. So after 14 years, that's when I got in peer support.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah. It's kind of common for families for police work or law enforcement work to run in families, isn't it?

Govan Martin III 

Yeah. And also to it's we get a lot of veterans also that come from they go into law enforcement after they leave military service. So it's, it's a great career. It's unique, but also it has its travails. It has its problems. And obviously, you know, I think law enforcement is more scrutinized today than it ever was before. You know, we really need to focus on how we can help them deal with the issues that are going on today.

Steve Martorano 

Well, I have a theory that as a society, no matter how you feel about police work or police in general, or we can be no better as a society than they are as an institution, part of that society. And this is not and we got to be clear here at the beginning. We're not here to litigate Pro or police in any particular sense, we all know what's going on. We all know that there's been a movement now associated with the sense that the police in some instances are out of control and are indifferent if not hostile. racially, that is an important topic and well worth discussing. We're talking about today on the Corner, the job of policing, the job of law enforcement, the kinds of people that are attracted to that the training they receive, which is, I think, critical, and when they're in crisis, as they often are, but because of the nature of their jobs, what kind of help is available to them. So let's, you know, we'll be clear about that. 

Govan Martin III 

Absolutely. 

Steve Martorano 

So, Govan, let's talk about some of it's obvious, but I think some of it is not so obvious. What are kind of what is sort of typical day to day things not associated with the calamity that we're talking about is 2020? That stress on police, what makes law enforcement more difficult?

Govan Martin III 

Yeah, you can always start off with the shift schedule shifts are actually, you know, usually never the same. They're either eight or 12-hour shifts. And, you know, you could go, what we call triple headers to work, you know, 3 to 11, 7 to 3, you know, 11 to 7 shift, which is always hard in the body, they say, That's usually one of the huge stressors physically, you know, not only while you're going through it, but after you retire as well. Because your body's not used to working, you know, different shifts all the time. Yeah, I think it's getting better. But obviously, that's one of the bigger things, just that regular patrol stress right now. And, and the scrutinization, just irregular, everybody now has a cell phone. So when you make a traffic stop, it might not be an ordinary traffic stop where someone's taping your exact word, the things that we that people normally don't see, seeing, you know, go into fatal accidents, it's going to suicides, it's going to, you know, homicide scenes, you know, you think that you can handle it going in sometimes, and there are a lot of people who doesn't present a problem to but others it does. And that's just the normal human psyche that, you know, we have to deal with, um, you know, it's the odd hours that we work, it's the, which also causes, you know, just inherent stress, eating stress, because we're usually junk food. And because we're always on the fly, we're always on the run. I mean, we could go through a list of a litany of things that make our job very unique. Just your sleep schedules off to really a police officer are not just working when he's on the shift, let's say, you know, working eight to four, you leave that job, you know, people are always calling you for you know, your friends calling got a ticket, or are some of our neighbors calling it their illegal drug, having legal problems, or they've gotten robbed or whatever, people are always calling you because they think we, we have the magic words, or we know people that can help them. And we do, but we're, we're all things to everybody, we're priest, we're a friend.

Steve Martorano 

Well, I mean, the things that you just described are, and again, they were nobody's excusing anything here, we're just discussing what this job is like, let's face it if that were the recruiting pitch you were just making, not a lot of people would want to be a cop. But I don't think anybody thinks about any of this. I think overwhelmingly people go into law enforcement because they do want to serve, then you run into this situation where anybody who's worked a shift situation, no matter what it is, those that that's taxing, it throws your body off. Long hours are obviously a difficulty in any profession. But that one area you just said about almost not being a cop. The banker goes home, he's at home, he's not the banker anymore. He's at home. Right? A million people. When an all student law enforcement officer is in a situation that is problematic, whatever it might be. If it happened to me as a civilian, my instinct might be to call a cop. If I'm a cop, I can't call anybody I got to be a cop then. So you show your show you're on call all the time. And then you add all the other stressors you just said about constant surveillance, on unpredictable incidences to you know...

Govan Martin III 

Even when you go by an accident on the road, right? You got it, you should be stopping to make sure that everybody's okay. Yeah, um, you see, you know, DUI on the road, you got to be calling in and maybe stopping that individual, you know, are waiting to tell the officer hopefully that somebody else comes what they did, and also that causes inherent stress causes also family issues as well. Because you're not home. You're working the holidays, you know, I mean, literally, there is a litany of items that, you know, that we could really talk about of the stress that goes into being a police officer. 

Steve Martorano 

Well, we only raise it for the following reasons so that as civilians who rely upon the police, or are, in some senses, put upon by them, when a cop pulls you over, it's not, you know, your right away, like, What's this about? What we need to understand better, so that we can get better policing, and safer streets and all that is at any given moment, when you interact with a police officer, as a civilian, you can't be aware of what frame of mind that person is incorrect?

Govan Martin III 

Absolutely, we have body cams, or the current law enforcers, body cams on now. It's so interesting of the reaction time that we have to have, we didn't think about it when you know, back in my day, in a sense, since I've been retired for eight years, however, now then you have to react in an instant. Because not only is your life that could be in jeopardy, but it's also the public that we have to protect. So there's that instant flight or flight, that we're born with that genetic component that we all have. And being a police officer, there is no such thing as flight, you have to fight or wonder, like I said, protect the public and also to protect yourself.

Steve Martorano 

These are common to any person who is in a kind of first responder, position, firemen EMTs, all those people have similar calls to duty and stress upon them. The difference, of course with police is that they are a) armed and pretty much can lock you up. That's it. That's a very different, different dynamics. So what we're seeing now is great attention. We all know what the attention is on. It's the racial overtones are obvious. But we can move beyond that, and talk about what kind of training recruits get to prepare them for this. And I realize we're real-world experiences are really the only thing but tell me about a recruiter who wants to go into law enforcement, your background was the state police? What, for instance, what kind of psych psychological evaluation is a recruit given before they go on the force?

Govan Martin III 

I can talk about state police, and I think it's occurring in a lot of departments today, is that usually there's a psychological evaluation even before you become just to apply to be a police officer. But we know that psychological you know, evaluations aren't the answer sometimes, because there's an old saying that policemen are usually whether it's true or not, I think some of the parts is police are usually want to be a priest or want to be criminals. So, and there's a slight difference between them. Because, you know, it's the good guy on you know, let it clean life, whatever, but still want to be criminals, that that actually knows how our criminal would act?

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I understand that. I understand. But let me ask you with regard to, isn't it? Isn't it worthwhile when training young people who want to go into law enforcement to make sure you don't have someone who is perhaps potentially aggressive or overly aggressive, or hostile, have views that might interfere with clear thinking and good policing, sometimes I get the impression that what's going on with police is that it's not that they're bad people, it's just that they're not trained, well, they're not ready for this job, this is not an easy job, and they don't look like they're really ready for it is, is any of that truth in your mind?

Govan Martin III 

Ah, you know, again, you know, you can train somebody to actually, you know, but somebody in a classroom and has somebody listen to whoever the instructor is, that doesn't necessarily mean that's going to change that person. And, you know, we have good and bad in every profession. However, there are those positions that we have in life that people trust, you know, the church or law enforcement or any type of first politicians, whatever, that replaces those positions where they're gonna get highlighted even more, but because of what we do in police work, that we do have to arrest people. And we do have to possibly, you know, obviously take them into custody or engaged in some type of physical altercation, depending on the circumstances involved. Obviously, I think that you have to look at the whole situation as a whole. Obviously, training is good, and repeated training is necessary, but also keeping track of those officers who are involved in those altercations to see you know, if it's heightened and To see what we can do to stop this. I think that really, and hopefully, overall that, you know, police work, you know, should be and police officers and departments should be scrutinized more, you know, just like in any other profession, you're going to get that by the 10% that ruins it for everybody.

Steve Martorano 

This is an institution and an organization policing. Law enforcement. We're as a society. We cannot afford bad apples, we Chris Rock, the comedian said, You don't hear American Airlines say, look, most of our pilots can land airplanes. But a couple yeah, it sounds it is ridiculous. When you put it in that context, the only way you make sure that there aren't "bad apples" is I think, pick the right people, and then train the hell out of them. Hey, and we're talking about all of this. We're going to get deep into it. By the way, we described this litany of particular stresses on law enforcement when you know, when we pick this back up, we're going to talk about the results of this. They manifest themselves in high blood pressure and insomnia and heart disease, diabetes, just post-traumatic stress. It's an amazing toll police work can take on law enforcement. We're hanging on the Behavioral Corner with our guest, Govan Martin, III. He is a retired state policeman from Pennsylvania 29-year veteran now actively involved and has been for a long time in peer support and suicide prevention. He's hanging with us on the Corner. I'm gonna just go into the bodega over here, grab a bag of chips, and then we'll pick up our discussion.

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Steve Martorano 

Govan Martin is our guest, we're talking about peer support, in particular, what how hard? How difficult is it? Is it to get police or law enforcement people to come in and ask for help? That? I'll bet you that's a particularly big hurdle, right?

Govan Martin III 

Absolutely. I think any, especially profession, as we know, and suicide prevention, men have a hard time asking for help. Now you're putting them into a position where, you know, the last thing that police officers military, first responders want and met, is that they need help themselves because they don't want to appear weak to their fellow coworkers. So it is a hard thing to get them to come in and ask for help. Because we live in an environment that, again, we're scrutinized, not only scrutinized by the public but more so by our own people that we work with. So we surely don't want to admit that we're weak in any category. We all have things that happen in life to us, you know, before we become a police officer before we come that veteran or first responder, or whatever someone happens to do, we all have what I call it an emotional backpack. Because of the things that we deal with when we're working. Obviously, law enforcement has a high rate of divorce, obviously, law enforcement, we do have, they say 15 to 18% have, you know, some sort of PTSD symptoms? And because of the things that we see and do, obviously, our problems can be heightened because we really are not taught in training, how to cope with the problems that we have that are usually the stressors. We need to do more.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, let me ask you if it's also not true that they don't come in for counseling or support because they're afraid it'll affect their careers?

Govan Martin III 

Absolutely. They're afraid, of trusting the person that they're talking to. And, and again, I've heard some horror stories that, you know, people go into employee assistance program or peer support, and that it's not kept confidential. And if it's not, yes, you can actually maybe be put on what was commonly called the rubber guns crowd back in the 90s and early 2000s. Depending on what kind of help you're asking for. It's just like a, you know, mark on your record that you went to see a psychologist...

Steve Martorano 

Right, exactly

Govan Martin III 

...or because the perception is you're weak. The perception is do I want to work with this person? 

Steve Martorano 

You're not fit for duty? Yeah, right. Right.

Govan Martin III 

And that's not the case. I really need to say that before. We all need to ask for help. For whatever we're dealing with, that really changes the way we coping or dealing with the stressors that we have. And if it's more than just that, you know, we're feeling just the regular stress in life, and it's interrupting our sleep, if it's, if it's causing, you know, physical symptoms as well, not just, you know, mental health, you know, if I got a broken arm, I'm gonna go to a doctor, if you know, I'm dealing with a divorce, if I'm dealing with, you know, I can't get the picture out of my mind after, you know, seeing some type of traumatic incident, that we need to go and just talk to somebody, everyday stressors that occur in police work, but and in life in general, that you know that there should be no problem. Just going to talk to somebody and sitting at a chair across somebody saying, here's what I'm going on. What can we do? And how do I get help? 

Steve Martorano 

Can you describe a typical, if it's, if it is, if there is such a thing? A fit for duty evaluation? How does that work?

Govan Martin III 

Well, usually, that a supervisor would see some things going on in a person's career, that would lead them to believe that there's like somebody coming in late for work, and then it escalates into, you know, maybe arguing with the public, and maybe getting altercation things that are obviously detrimental to that person's career, or to the department as a whole...

Steve Martorano 

Or to the public?

Govan Martin III 

And/or the public. 

Steve Martorano 

Here's my question. Look, you're 29 years on the state police? I don't expect you to answer this personally. But how does it work? If I'm on patrol with somebody I've been working for a while. And I see behavior that I think is problematic. I don't mean vile, I mean, just, I wonder, is my partner, okay? Do they go to the partner and talk to them? Or is this sort of cone of silence that descends over this so that, you know, cops in stress, don't get the help they need anyway?

Govan Martin III 

We don't really have partners anymore. There's always manpower issues in law enforcement. And because I mean, we don't have the money usually involved, as we saw back in the, you know, the 70s and 80s, you know, with Adam 12. And, and all those police shows that you know, I can't think of any SWAT or whatever, you know, you see people driving around, you know, in duo's and partners, and the only time we're really with somebody driving in a patrol car midnight shift, that's only with, you know, larger departments. And, or when it's like a coach, people session with that new person coming out. What do we see things happen? Absolutely. Is there a cone of silence? I'm sure there is. And it does exist. And hopefully, again, it's, that's why, you know, we're teaching a lot more police officers to do like crisis intervention training, not only for how to deal with the public better, and teaching de-escalation skills but also recognizing that, you know, our coworkers also are having problems. Yeah, yep. And so that some of the training involves is going to talk to your co-worker and saying, hey, I've noticed you've been really different lately, what's going on? Yeah, but also teaching supervision as well, on the signs on what to look for the like, underneath the surface, because it's always not always sure. visible,

Steve Martorano 

Nobody is in a better position to notice it, and are using the expression "bad apple" faster than their colleague. So I mean, when police and the atmosphere changes to allow that to happen more freely, and without threatening somebody's career or something, you know, I think, I would hope is that the quality of policing, and the stresses associated with it might all diminish, then we'd have what we want a force that serves and protects and doesn't often look like, you know, an army of occupation. I know, we have spent a lot of time and this is a big, big topic, we could go on and on. Talking about this is a tough job, anybody, I don't care what you think about the police. It's a tough job. The stresses on them affect us directly, sometimes horribly. So as we know, but let's talk about the...

Govan Martin III 

Can I stop you for one second? And I think when you brought up a point about that police officers see other police officers all the time. That's partly true, but like for some of these incidents that we have seen occur across the country, you know, where acts that we hate might be a one time act, you know, for that one person. But it can be the fact that they had a progressive sort of discipline that they didn't take enough. The department may have not.

Steve Martorano 

Absolutely I mean, I understand that the though the horrible events we've seen and you know, George Floyd is the most notable, of course, in our one-time event horribly, resulting in the guy's death, but the spectacle of other police officers standing around while listening got worse and worse, has troubled a lot of people. Let me talk about the most, I think the most devastating effect of all of this on the people who serve in law enforcement, and that is there. We've talked about the physical problems that result in marriages that break up the substance abuse that often results as suicide rates are shocking. The last figure I saw was that suicide rates among active law enforcement are what three times the general public?

Govan Martin III 

You know, there's some debate over that, because, with suicide prevention, the unfortunate part is that the stats are underrated. Right now currently, the current stats for suicide across this country are 48,344. But we really believe that the 10, to 20% underestimation, because can a one-car crash via suicide, can an accidental overdose by a suicide? Sure, but the evidence has to indicate it to law enforcement and or the corner to have a classified as a suicide. So we know that every suicide is not counted. And there is no depository for law enforcement right now, for suicides. So the one agency, there is an organization. And they actually collect their statistics through, you know, Google, but we know that suicides always don't get into the media. But the suicides that do actually, we know that actually, it's anywhere from 50 to 60, more than people who die in the line of duty suicide stats, you know, they're not collected by the FBI. They're not collected, usually by their local departments, because, unfortunately, suicide, it causes shame and stigma. And the last thing that really law enforcement needs right now is there's more stigma placed upon it. But it was never actually tabulated in the first place. Because you know, what, you know, the public agency wants to...

Steve Martorano 

I understand. I understand. But you've just said something stunningly insightful. I don't think anybody I certainly thought about it. But it sounds like you're saying its police are at greater risk, not from the civilian population, they engage with even the bad guys than they are from the risks -- from the pressures of their job in the form of suicide, they are more likely to hurt themselves, by their own hand, than be hurt by somebody on the street. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's Yeah. So listen, that's just breathtaking. And it really gets to the core of this thing. You've got people in a tough job, and a tough time. And we're not supporting them enough. The establishment that people who, you know, the people who fund this, I don't think it's a money issue, I think the police have plenty of money, they're just spending it the wrong way. That's just an amazing thought. I know that we want to get an opportunity to talk about the suicide prevention program that you've been involved in for years and years, you're the past chairman and the executive director of the suicide prevention in Pennsylvania. And you got new, I guess, nonprofit coming up. What are people in crisis, law enforcement people in crisis? the crisis needs to know, should they have suicidal thoughts want to give the phone number, and make that clear?

Govan Martin III 

Well, you know, I think the big thing that not only law enforcement to know that everybody should know is that there is help out there. And there is hope. And that there are people to turn to that you can trust. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline number is 1-800-273-8255. And I say it again 1-800-273-8255. And for those in the millennial generation, that the younger generation, if they don't want to talk on the phone, they can actually text. And you can either call or text anonymously if you called or if you contact and text to the Crisis Text Line at 741741, a crisis counselor will pop up and you can chat with them and tell them what's going on. And they're also other law enforcement peer support. Agencies all around like in Pennsylvania, you can contact them any police officer, and or family member if they need to, they can contact the Pennsylvania State Police member Assistance Program, or other you know, their local employee assistance programs in their police departments if they have one, which is kind of scary. And then a lot of police departments don't have an EAP or one that they trust. Because, again, the last police need that trust factor to be able to open up and say, just a simple fact of, hey, I'm having a hard time with, you know, seeing that infant die, yes, or going on a crisis scene. But they might be thinking because it, you know, one of the biggest signs for suicide is never just one issue. Suicide is always multiple issues that somebody goes through to reach, you know, to get to that stage or they're, you know, making a plan and thinking about suicide. But one of the biggest ones is relationship issues, where we want that police officer and or his co-workers to say, just to ask the simple question. Hey, how are you doing? What can I do for you, you know, there is help out there, and I'm willing to help you. And you need to call this number, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline number or whatever. But they should be, you know, hopefully, people need to put, again, their pride away into getting help for themselves, because it just doesn't help them serve their loved ones and their family. Because, you know, a lot of people are obvious in their co-workers, everybody's devastated when someone dies by suicide, we always send, unfortunately, I lost my brother's suicide as well. So it's, it's devastating myself and my family. I know that pain 

Steve Martorano 

I'm sorry to hear that. You know, we're gonna wrap it up on the Corner here. But just as one last point that you make about, it's unimaginable that even the smallest law enforcement organization in some town, much less than larger ones wouldn't have a robust and effective employee assistance program. Maybe the next time, they decide they need another half-track or a bunch of SWAT equipment, they'll stop and go, you know what, let's fund this EAP program a little more robustly. And that might go a long way towards getting it so great.

Govan Martin III 

EAP and peer support programs save careers, they save marriages, they can make a huge difference if it's a good program. And really, you know, it's just that department or agency doing some research and getting the there employees, their police officers the trust in the program, because they have to back it and say, you know what, our job is to make sure that you have, that you're going to work and have a great career, but we want you to end your career on a healthy note. We want you to end your career and enjoy your retirement because of all the hard work that you did. 

Steve Martorano 

The other thing is that, sure, the other thing is that maybe the community maybe, you know, the civilians out there can also stop and before they start demanding that the local police have some kind of civilian review board, which is a good idea, but it's always dealing with problems after they occur and start demanding that in their communities, there are better support programs so that there are fewer, in fact, no bad apples in the police department, Govan Martin, III. Thank you so much. As I said, the big, big topic here hanging on the Corner. We'd love to have you back at any time you want to talk about your work with law enforcement, we'd appreciate having you.

Govan Martin III 

Great, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Steve Martorano 

Take care. See you next time on the Behavioral Corner.

Steve Martorano 

Oh, wait, wait, come here. I forgot. If you're listening to the show, and we appreciate that. You can write a review. You can write a particularly good review if you like but write any kind of review. We love that feedback. Easy enough. I'm told to review the Behavioral Corner. Wherever you are listening to it on whatever platform you receive your podcasts we would appreciate that and by the way, be sharpen your critique. Thanks. See you next time.

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