The Behavioral Corner 0:09 

Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while. 

Steve Martorano 0:29 

So everybody, hi, and welcome again to the Behavioral Corner. I'm Steve Martorano. I actually get to hang here on the corner. And you know, one of the great things about the behavioral corner is that you never know who's going to cross the street against the light or come out of the bodega with a newspaper. And we run into some fascinating folks, many of whom, coincidentally, are experts in this certain field concerning behavioral health. And that's the case today. Dr. Ted Fallon is with us to talk about something I wanted to talk about a long time ago but has become more acute in my mind, because obviously, of the pandemic, and that's family dynamics in general. How do families work? I'm often reminded of some Russian writer somewhere, once said, all happy families are alike. And I remember thinking, yeah, that's true. Anyway, Ted Fallon is with us from Drexel University's School of Medicine, and we are appreciative of his time, Doctor, welcome to the Behavioral Corner.

Dr. Ted Fallon 1:30 

Thank you. Thank you to complete that. That's Anton Chekhov. And the other part of that saying is that and unhappy families are each unique in their own way. Yeah, miserable, miserable in their own way, I think is the way it really translates.

Steve Martorano 1:46 

It's a wonderful quote, we're gonna get into that notion feet first. First of all, tell us a little bit about your background, just recent promotion, congratulations to, again, what a full professorship now at Drexel. So congratulations on that. Just briefly, your background in psychiatry.

Dr. Ted Fallon 2:05 

Ah, well, I have been a physician since the early 80s. And I practiced in the departments of medicine departments of Pediatrics and then began my training in psychiatry and psychoanalysis. And have gone on from there. I love teaching, I have a private practice. And I do some writing and some research. So that's, that's my background.

Steve Martorano 2:33 

Do you primarily deal in family situations and Adolescent Psychiatry and counseling is that what goes on?

Dr. Ted Fallon 2:40 

People ask me who I say in my private practice. And I say that I see children up to the age of 90. And I will see them in any configuration that they come in. Usually, when they're younger, they come in in the context of families. But I do see older people in the context of families as well. Aging people that, for instance, baby boomers are trying to figure out what to do with their parents. And so they all come in and tow, 

Steve Martorano 3:08 

if we get a chance to get into that this is an interesting moment in times in terms of demographics because you do have three generations now, the possibility of three generations, who are, you know, often, often, obviously, they have to interact and figure things out, you've got the baby boomers, who, some of whose parents are still alive. They're very elderly, but some of them are alive, plus the children of the boomers. So that's three generations. And it particularly goes to the notion of dynamics of the family that we're talking about. Listen, there's no, there's no group of people that come together in any context, I can think of where there are as many competing ideas and emotions and baggage going on, then the family, the families are an interesting social construction. It's an amazing group of people that have to get along all of that, as become much more affected. Like everything else by COVID. Tell us what your experiences now what you're seeing with regard to the pandemic and the dynamics of keeping a family

Dr. Ted Fallon 4:11 

together. To begin with, I think there's a tremendous amount of anxiety. The anxiety, to begin with, is because of the unknown, what is this thing called COVID. And what are we facing? Some people want to turn away from it, other people turn into it. People argue about masks are no masks, people are arguing about how restrictive we need to be. So there's a lot of unknown and that really generates anxiety. Everybody in their developmental level from infants up to the elderly has their own developmental perspective, that is young children face certain things when they're thinking about or having to deal with it. pandemic, the young adults, something different. Parents, again, something different, and grandparents, completely different. So when we think about the family, it's important to recognize that there are these different developmental phases their challenges, and when they think about how to face the pandemic, there are different risks.

Steve Martorano 5:25 

One of the things that it seems to me occurs when people are confused and then anxious is that in order to make decisions, rather than pause to reason, things out, they go to their sort of judgmental mode. Does anxiety make us more judgmental? Or is it no factor at all?

Dr. Ted Fallon 5:49 

It does more than make us judgmental, it clouds our thinking. If anyone has ever been overwhelmed at the moment, either because I have too many things to do, or because something disturbing has happened. It's much more difficult to think, under those circumstances, our thinking capacities, really degenerate. And we fall back on what we think we know. And what we think we know is usually a far cry from actually what we do know. And what we do know is a far cry from what's really out there. So we're talking about a shadow of reality.

Steve Martorano 6:31 

And then we're asked to negotiate our way through that.

Dr. Ted Fallon 6:34 

Absolutely. And people end up doing a lot of shadowboxing

Steve Martorano 6:40 

I guess always occurred to me, and I know I'm guilty of this, that being judgmental, obviously, we all arrive at conclusions at some point that requires a judgment. But if you're getting to judging, before thinking, or reasoning, that's a shortcut. So you're not to think about anything, you're going to cop an attitude about something, immediately judge it, and then either resist it or go along with it. Do you find that people are able to behave in a certain fashion, particularly in assembly, but observe their behavior? Are people really aware of the way they're behaving when they're in a family context?

Dr. Ted Fallon 7:20 

Well, when one's emotions get more intense, I think it's much more difficult. We know that, for instance, children, by the age of seven, we expect normatively that they're going to be able to reflect on themselves and think, but that really is a challenge. And especially when people are anxious and upset, and they're feeling at risk. And I think that this, this pandemic makes people feel at risk that there's so much unknown. And it's very difficult to observe oneself under those circumstances.

Steve Martorano 7:57 

Yeah, before I forget, what's the relationship between heightened anxiety and your actual physical health? Can't be good for you, right?

Dr. Ted Fallon 8:05 

Well, a little bit of anxiety is okay, that gets us ready, that gets us ready for the race that gets us ready for the test. But if it continues over a long period, or if it becomes so much that we can think then it tears at the fabric of our mind, and tears at the fabric of our body as well. Our blood pressure goes up, our heart rate goes up. And we don't sleep well. All sorts of things that happen in our health can really degenerate. Absolutely.

Steve Martorano 8:38 

Because I know when I read that, I think, what are they saying that anxiety can actually cause these things, but when you look at it, and it's a total sense, if your body's not functioning, well, then you're susceptible to these other things. So I know we're gonna see a whole lot of that, you know, again, with regard to the, to the family, I think most families are made up of equal parts of affection and hostility. I mean, is that true? Do you agree with that?

Dr. Ted Fallon 9:09 

Oh, absolutely. There's an interesting phenomenon that you can see when people have pets and their pets die. There's usually a tremendous mourning period that lasts about a week, and then they go out and get another pet. But when you know when a family member dies, it's much more difficult to grieve because the emotions are mixed. You know, what did I get from this person that I'm now never going to get? And as well as what am I going to miss? So the positive and the negative aspects of relationships are very important when we know other people's vulnerability and we accept them. That's a part of intimacy but we Have to go through a period of saying, you know, I don't like that about you. And then well, what are we going to do about it. And then if we continue, then we reach a deeper level of intimacy. So the negative what we would call the darker side of relationships is actually important in building intimacy and building relationships. But it is there. And it's a struggle. And people need to struggle, they need to hang in there and struggle in a way that they can interact with others without psychologically hurting them.

Steve Martorano 10:33 

We obviously now live in the golden age of what's referred to as social distancing something that seems to be perfectly appropriate given the nature of the disease, but it flies in the face of what I keep reading, and that is that we are social animals, we obviously come together, how deep is that need for contact?

Dr. Ted Fallon 10:58 

I object to the idea of social distancing, I much prefer the idea of physical distancing. Because you're absolutely right. social interaction is like the food at the psychological level. If we don't get it, we wither. The Geneva Convention has said that solitary confinement is torture, it's basically starving the person socially, and minds fall apart under those circumstances. So social interaction is absolutely critical. It has different meanings at different developmental levels. But it's critical for our continued existence.

Steve Martorano 11:38 

That's an interesting shift in context. And language matters, we keep talking about socially distancing. And the image that comes to mind is, is separation is his isolation, when in fact, what we're really talking about is just don't breathe in someone else's face, figure out a way to interact, and don't spread this disease. You know, this gets this way to the meat of this. And that is my favorite expression. And I'm a bit of a curmudgeon about this stuff. Someone once said, well, Christmas has this by the throat again. And that's true. This is a very anxious time of the year even without pandemic planning and who's going to do this and gift-buying and all of that. So against that backdrop, what are you hearing from people is going on inside of families when they're trying to reconcile the coming together of the holidays, and the need to be physically distant? There are real problems that can develop correctly?

Dr. Ted Fallon 12:34 

Absolutely, this is a time that's putting pressure on the entire fabric of our society. And it puts pressure directly on families because families in many cases are a huge portion of the source of that psychological food, of social interaction. It's important as we think about that, to think about each developmental level. For example, if we think about children that are say, younger than the age of 10, most of that major social interaction occurs with their parents. If they're with their parents, their parents are calm, cool, and collected, their parents relate to them are available for them emotionally, under any circumstances, those children will survive. There's a very nice example of that during World War Two, the bombing of London, Anna Freud did an interesting experiment, she took some of the children to Hampstead Clinic outside of London to protect them. And they were taken away from their parents so that they willingly there were another group of children that stayed with their parents, the children who did best of those three groups, Well, I'll tell you about the two groups that in London, there was one group where the parents were cool and collected. And those children did just fine. The parents who were upset would go down to the bomb shelters and fret and then say, Oh, my God, the world is ending. Their children did very poorly. And the children who were taken away from their parents, but nurtured and kept in a safe place, they did, okay, they did somewhere in the middle. But we see that even in the middle of a bombing in London in World War Two, that those children that are supported and nurtured by their parents, in a calm, cool, collected way, where their parents are emotionally available -- they do best. And they would do okay, under these circumstances, if the parents can continue to be available now. So we're gonna have to talk about what the parent's pressures are and how they can do that or not, but that's a position of young children.

Steve Martorano 14:54 

Yeah, it's amazing. You should bring up that example of bliss in London because whenever I read something about that the suffering of the children and they're falling behind. And there, and I'm thinking, Well, you know what, there was a generation of kids who had to go underground with their parents and be bombed. And they have, I'm guessing that that generation did okay. But most, you know, those kids managed to make it. And it always occurs to me, as you said, that no matter what the situation is, the kids are going to take their cues from their parents. With regard to everything. Let's talk a little bit about the differences though, in this dynamic of trying to deal with this inside a family. Children, as you just described, pretty much take their cues from their parents. What about the adult children of boomers? Can they be too protective? Or, or too Cavalier with regard to their aging parents and how they should treat them? What are they doing to make this work?

Dr. Ted Fallon 15:54 

Okay, well, then we have to consider the developmental perspective and challenges of the middle-aged baby boomers or slightly aging baby boomers, and the elderly. Where are the elderly, and this is a very important area of development that hasn't been studied enough? But the elderly, if they don't continue to maintain contact with the rest of the world, it can shrivel and die, we put them away in nursing homes and don't visit them, and they lose contact. And psychologically, they really shrivel up. So I think, for example of my own mother, who's in her home alone, and how much contact does she have with others, it's extremely important for her to continue to have that social interaction. And it's too easy for our society, to push them aside because they're not important because they don't have a job because they don't face the pressures that the rest of us do. That's critical and even feels quite threatening. If they are isolated in a way that they can't have contact, they can make contact. When we think of people who were in jobs, people are running the world, who were thinking about the risks and safety of the general population of themselves of their children of their parents. They're much more focused on the moment of safety. How do we keep everybody safe? And their interaction socially, they get it, they get plenty of it. So they're not thinking of their elderly parents. So we're isolated. And I think that if that dialogue could happen between the elderly parents who say, wait a minute, I'm sitting here all alone, day after day, moment to moment, hour after hour. It's too much. It's isolating, and my mind is falling apart. Now, most people don't actually experience it quite like that. But that is what happens. And if that conversation can happen, then I think it would lead to a more productive solution, rather than Are we going to meet with the family? Are we not going to meet with the family? You know, here's our tradition, we have to do our tradition. Well, why do we have to do the tradition? We have to do it? because it keeps us in contact socially.

Steve Martorano 18:35 

Yeah. Well, you know what, it's interesting that you even use the first time I even consider it the idea of elderly development. Because I mean, it sounds like it might be oxymoronic to talk about development when we're getting older. But that's the phase of life that needs to be considered nurtured and as you say, developed. Our guest is Dr. Ted Fallon from Texas School of Medicine, practices, psychiatry. He's a professor there as well, teaching young minds, how are they doing? By the way, we had a brief moment to talk about your students. What what's the crop of young psychiatry students looking like?

Dr. Ted Fallon 19:12 

Well, let me back up a little bit and talk about development. I mentioned young children. We can talk about adolescence, and I'm working mainly with young adults, they're out on their own. Usually, they're associated with their parents in some way. But their developmental challenge is to figure out where and how they're going to fit in socially. It's extremely important for their growth and development, that they have lots of social interaction. It's part of their growth if you can imagine, you know, a sapling that is just, you know, shooting up like crazy. It needs the nutrients that are available. When they don't get the nutrients they really suffer, they feel it, they feel isolated, they feel uncomfortable. As you get older, it's not quite so important for your development to have that nurturing. So they're continuing to learn, they're continuing to do their studies. But they are weighed down by the isolation. So one of the things that we've been doing that I've been doing with them is to meet with them in the group and to share with them. And this goes to the point of social versus physical isolation, even on these Hollywood Square kind of virtual meetings, people are interacting, they're sharing. They're figuring out how to do that. They're figuring out how to convey that stuff of social interaction, which is really conveying feelings to one another. How do you feel? How do I feel? What are my thoughts and the feelings and the colors that go with those? So they're struggling? 

Steve Martorano 21:06 

On that note, do you find that that younger generation is going to get better at picking up on nonverbal clues? virtually? Is that is that a skill that can be developed?

Dr. Ted Fallon 21:19 

I'm laughing because a few years ago, I was working with an older adolescent. And this was when texting was new. And she was showing me some of the texts that she had interchanges between her friends and her. And, and I mean, these were just like a few words, or sometimes not even words, just lol and OMG. And, and I would say, you know, I would look at a text. And I would say, Well, what do you know that of this person on the other end? All I know what they're feeling I know what they're reacting to. I mean, just in a few words, they were able to code feelings. So you know, we use what we have where, you know, human beings are incredibly adaptable, and especially younger adolescents and young adults. They're very creative. And I learn all the time, one of the things I love to do is teach because I learn more than they do. 

Steve Martorano 22:20 

For sure. Dr. Fallon, let's take the remainder of the time we have here now to get to the nitty-gritty here of family dynamics of the age of a pandemic, what happens when there is sharp, sharp disagreement about behaviors associated with getting together and being safe? How do you counsel families to negotiate their way through that, because we have evidence of families being splintered,

Dr. Ted Fallon 22:49 

You know, the first thing I teach, and it works very well with young children. And if, if older people are willing to do it, it really works well for the sports teams do it, they call it "timeout". If things get too hot, they, you know, step to step back. The Quakers have this thing that when they start arguing, everybody just falls silent, and they have meditation, and they sit with their feelings and say, okay, you know, where am I where is everybody else, and then they can become more thoughtful. So, when it gets really heated, my recommendation is to do a timeout, and it usually requires a nonverbal because everybody's noise, the verbal is so loud. So I teach them, you know, this kind of thing that everybody stops, and sort of steps back and withdraws. And now that one thing that people can do is they withdraw, and then they never come back to it. That's not good, either. So you've got to do this in between to say, okay, when are we going to get back together to talk and it may be five minutes, it may be an hour, it may be tomorrow, it may be next week, but it can't just stop. And it's got to give enough time for people to settle down. The optimal time depends on the age of the person, but it's usually between five minutes and an hour, that people can settle down and begin to think and then re-begin to say, now let me listen. What is your issue? What do you want? And then let me tell you what I want. And the most important part here is not to tell because we have that from inside that just comes bursting out. But it's listening. Can we understand what this other person is saying? And really feel it put ourselves in their shoes to feel what they're feeling if we can do that, then the negotiation becomes much easier.

Steve Martorano 24:55 

It helps to be able to hold two conflicting thoughts. In your head at the same time, which is a skill. But let me this, I don't want to end on this is because this gets to the nub of it, there is a lot of talk about conversation, we cannot speak to one another in any realm, then we're doomed. And right after someone says that they will say, and the most important part is listening. And this is a tough one. Because I think you'll agree, some things are not worth listening to. Some things you don't have to embrace, you almost don't even have to listen to them. They're so antithetical to what you may believe. So is there a difference or a distinction to be made between listening to understand somebody else's point of view, and listening as though you are embracing what they're saying?

Dr. Ted Fallon 25:53 

That's an interesting question. I'm actually trying to write about this at the moment. There is a way that one can be quiet, and listening in an expectation. The expectation is that you're going to find something that you are in all of. I am fascinated when people tell me something that is absolutely out of the realm of my understanding of reality. And I put it that way because I don't think I have a corner on the market of reality. I have my understanding of reality, and other people have their understanding of reality. If someone keeps saying something over and over again, there's something behind it, what's the feeling behind it? And that's what I want to try to understand, you know, if you say, this is this way, and I say, well, you know, you see it that way, I don't see it that way, they can tell me and they may tell me the same thing over and over again, in an effort to have me see what they see. But I want to try to help them settle down their effect, get sort of lower a little bit so that they can begin to think what I'm trying to understand. And even in that process of trying to understand, I think that is what allows people to move forward. So when we have a conversation, over half of it has nothing to do with the content of what we say it has to do with the effect that we're conveying the feelings that we're conveying. It usually is around content. And why does this content excite someone so? And of course, in my work, we usually discover that there are things in the past that have been traumatizing, or are uncomfortable, or, you know, as a parent, I don't want my child to suffer all sorts of anxieties. But if we can just allow those anxieties to put them aside, not forget about them, but put them aside and listen to what's underneath. Then I think that just the process of listening and trying to understand brings good faith between people and helps the intimacy deepen.

Steve Martorano 28:26 

Yeah, I mean, it turns listening into something that is not passive at all. 

Dr. Ted Fallon 28:32 

Absolutely not. It is active in the sense that you're waiting for and expecting something which you may not like, you might not want to hear. But if you're willing to hear it, listen to it, accept it, not because you believe it, not because you're going to endorse what they're saying, but because you want to understand now what their perspective is. And you may have to say in the end, look, you and I disagree. But how can we agree to disagree? Or how can we move on with that disagreement? What's the solution here? If we disagree?

Steve Martorano 29:09 

Yeah, it's great. I mean, I heard a while back about the ability to well, if you have images, if you were to take a ball and hold it between two people, one side is red, the other side is blue. And ask the two people to describe the ball, you would get two diametrically opposed descriptions, and write that would be dumbfounding to the job people. What do you mean? It's, it's blue. Now? What do you mean? It's red? Just because of that inability to go hmmm, maybe they're looking at this from some other angle. So yeah, that's in terms of what's going on now. It sounds like a cliche, but it's absolutely important to listen. Ted Fallon, Professor Drexel University School of Medicine, psychiatry. Thank you so much for your time. We hope we can have you back. Say you're just a wealth of information about this kind of stuff. And we love to hear from knowledgeable people here on the corner, have a great holiday. And congratulations again on the professorship.

Dr. Ted Fallon 30:11 

Thank you very much.

Steve Martorano 30:13 

Take care of you all, and we'll see you again on the corner.

Retreat Behavioral Health 30:18 

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The Behavioral Corner 30:48 

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