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Ep. 33 - Steve Eichel

Jan 09, 2021

Are cults merely social groups with unusual beliefs and behaviors, or are they something more complex and dangerous? Dr.Steven Eichel is our guest on the Behavioral Corner, and he’s an expert on the issue.


From Jonestown to QAnon, we’re talking cults this time on the Corner. Join us.



Ep. 33 - Dr. Steve Eichel Podcast Transcript

The BehavioralCorner BehavioralCorner 

Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while. 


Steve Martorano 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Behavioral Corner. I'm Steve Martorano and you know the deal, or maybe not. We hang on a corner. We picked a great spot to a busy spot. There's a bodega across the street, a newsstand down the corner, obviously, get coffee anywhere. And we wait for interesting people to come by. We grab them and we hang and we talk about stuff. It's all about behavioral health. Our underwriters Retreat Behavioral Health has given us a very broad mandate to talk about the way we behave, which influences all of that - our emotional or physical and psychological well being. So that's what we do. And we're fortunate always to run into very interesting people these we think so. So we hope you're joining us regularly for the Behavioral Corner. You know, I gotta tell you, I'm really looking forward to this interview today. I have been sort of morbidly fascinated by the topic of cults and cult-like behavior and cultists, I guess since Charlie Manson. I mean, I may be before that, but that's the one that stands out in this baby boomer's mind, and I'm sure it doesn't many other people. We're gonna take a deep dive as deep as we can on cults, their influences, their dangers, maybe their benefits, I don't know. So what we do is we go get somebody who knows what they're talking about, since I'm asking the questions that I don't know anything. Dr. Steve Eichel joins us. Dr. Eichel is a licensed board-certified psychologist. He's an expert in this field. He's a board member and past president of an organization called the International Cultic Studies Association. So we tell you, we get people. Hello, Dr. Eichel, thanks for joining us.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Morning.


Steve Martorano 

So I mean, Charlie's probably the most famous I mean, the Manson people. Maybe the most illustrious or infamous quote, would you agree?


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Probably depends a little bit on generation, my generation. That may be the case but also in my generation. There's, you know, Jonestown, probably most people who at least followed cults in the media, if you would ask them when they think of a cult, what do they think of? I'd say 50%, Charlie and 50%, Jonestown,


Steve Martorano 

When we talk about cults, what are we talking about? What is a cult?


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Well, the term cult has multiple definitions. And so there's a sociological definition of a cult which, which involves basically a charismatic person that people kind of gather around. So there's like Elvis Presley cult, that sort of thing, or the Beatles cult, that's a sociological definition. That theological definition is different yet. The definition that I use really, and the terms that we tend to use are destructive cults, we talked about destructive cults. So a destructive cult is a group that typically headed by most often a male, but occasionally a woman as well, who claims and people believe they have either some connection with divinity, or they are a divinity. Or they are many groups, you know, claim the leader claim to be the second coming of Jesus, or if it's a political group, a political cult, and they certainly do exist. The leader of that group is assigned characteristics that go way beyond the normal or usual political leadership and think of someone like Karl Marx, who, you know, hardcore Marxist believe that you know, he was the end-all and be-all of history. Marx described history more accurately, named better than anyone else. And, and that's the truth. Period. Class warfare is what defines human history throughout time. Period. There's no questioning of that.


Steve Martorano 

I alone can fix it.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Right. So there's usually either a charismatic leader. There's usually some form of closed ideology, in other words, an ideology that does not change with facts and with new information. And most importantly, it typically involves what I would refer to as unethical recruitment methods, like love bombing, for example, or out seduction like children of God/family actually had women go out and engage in what they refer to as flirty fishing. And then finally, and also very importantly, the use of coercive techniques to bring people into the group and most importantly, to maintain them in the group.


Steve Martorano 

So if I understand that if you remove the dangerous or illegal methods from the definition, in other words, if coercion is not an issue, then you don't have a cult.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

That's right. That is a central feature. We celebrate the Boston Tea Party and we celebrate. Somebody once said, and I don't know, probably many people have said, whether someone's a terrorist or liberated depends on who wins. You know, a lot of groups, the Puritans were booted out of England because they were essentially a fanatic. 


Steve Martorano 

They were crazy. 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

And they came to the United States not to seek religious freedom, but to impose their will.


Steve Martorano 

Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we don't remember that part of Thanksgiving. All right. So let's get right to the nitty-gritty here. We're recording this after the events of Wednesday, last week, and we all know what happened. Were those people, the ones we saw, we can't comment on the whole group that descended on Washington. Were they motivated by cultic behavior? Were they part of a cult?


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Well, again, that goes to how one defines a cult. And of course, my friend Steve Hasson wrote one of the very first books on what he referred to as a Cult of Trump. That gets, you know, the same question comes up with, for example, the National Socialists, ie Nazi movement in, in Germany, the Nazi movement started off as a political cult, and then, of course, came to rule the country. So you now had an entire country that was under the thumb of a cult.


Steve Martorano 

Legally, they came to power legally, that there's no coercion there, right? 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

There was lots of deception. And there's lots of unethical behavior. But there is no formal coercion until Hitler was named Chancellor. 


Steve Martorano 

Yes, yes.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

And what he did was ban all the opposition. Now, that's an important piece, because information control is essential in cultic, dynamics. Scientology literally makes its members use their own browser, their browser is a program, keep off of your computer, anything that's critical of Scientology,


Steve Martorano 

That whole area of the methods and techniques they use, not so much to recruit but to maintain group cohesion, and fasting, I'll put that off to the side for one second, and just go back to this notion of the central elements that make possible the rise of something like this. Now, putting aside the message, again, coercion, and all that all of the descriptions you've made seem to incorporate at some level, if not a very powerful idea. Or always, it seems a very powerful person, a charismatic figure...


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Some of the older groups, for example, and I'm not sure there are many people who feel that ISKCON is no longer really a cult in the same way that it used to be. ISKCON being the Hare Krishna, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. But you know, the founder of ISKCON Prabhupada died and a bunch of years ago, L Ron Hubbard, of course, died. or excuse me, ascended to another level of operating Thetan. You know, and then Miscavige, of course, took over Scientology and is probably going to be there for the end of Scientology. I, because he's such a, he's a character. I'll just leave it at that. And there are some people who believe that he even murdered his wife if no one's heard from her first. 


Steve Martorano 

Oh, yes. Yes. Local. A local fellow, by the way. From the Delaware Valley. 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Miscavige is? 


Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I think he is. 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Oh, I didn't know that. 


Steve Martorano 

I know. He's lived here for at some point. So anyway, yeah. Cuz there's plenty of examples out I think Jesus died. And the power of the whatever message was, his followers spread was. So it was, obviously, he changed the world, the power of that message. But at the beginning, it was the charisma of this young rabbi, apparently, and the people around him to spread that message. And it changed the world. 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

There are people who question, even the existence of Jesus. Nobody questions that Muhammad was a real person. And he's probably a good example of a cult leader at that time.


Steve Martorano 

Let's talk about I think we got a handle on this. This notion of a charismatic figure, maybe messianic, in their pronouncements, the use of coercion to bring people together. Tell us about the people who are I won't use the word susceptible, because it's a majority, but who is attracted to that sort of message? Who attracted to that kind of message?


Dr. Steve Eichel 

I'll say, who can be attracted to that kind of message? 


Steve Martorano 

Everybody, right? 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Well, no, not everybody. Psychopaths are not and severely psychotic. People are not.


Steve Martorano 

Psychopaths. Why? Because you're not joining us.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Well, yeah, because we're talking about social influence. And of course, someone who's or associate path they're not subjected. That's why prisons and mental hospitals are so bad at the quote, unquote, reforming the people who are there because they don't respond the way you and I do to social influence or social pressure. Their, you know, social influence and social pressure have, of course, its negative side, we all know that wars cults, etc. But of course, it's also what keeps, I mean, social pressure and social influence are what allows us to be civilized. So, you know, there are positives and negatives to that as well as everything. But basically, the best explanation for cultic membership that I've ever heard. And this was an explanation given by Albert Bandura, a very famous psychologist. He wasn't talking specifically about cults, he was talking about other things. But cults came into the picture. And what he said was the single biggest factor in cult recruitment is bad luck. Now, what do I mean by that? Or what did he mean by that more important, it means that the vast majority of us at various points in our lives are vulnerable to cultic influence. Typically, those are during periods of transition or periods of great questioning. So cult recruiters will go after those who just started college or moved or gotten divorced, who's been lost their jobs. So typically, it's some major transition that is either conflicted or negative, like a divorce. Basically, everyone who lives you know, who lives at least a certain amount of time, and we all go through these periods of transition. What separates a cult member from someone else is a cult member had the bad luck of running into a cult recruiter at that time.


Steve Martorano 

Wow. Okay, I get sure I understand that wrong place wrong time. I guess what comes up for many of us from laypeople looking at the cult. Cultist? How could they believe that? They must be stupid? Yeah, that's wrong.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

That's a comment remark that I get from people all the time. And it is absolutely incorrect. They're not very many studies because cults are notoriously secretive. But the few studies that are out there, the average IQ of a cult member is about 110, which is a high average. Of course, many have a college education or have been recruited at college. Not only does it have nothing to do with intelligence, but actually, for a lot of people intelligence, predisposes them to cultic connections, because most cults for the ideology is difficult to understand. So you have to have, you know, a low IQ person reading Scientology, theology or even Dianetics is gonna look at and go, this is ignorance is bliss. And in some cases, it is yeah, so generally speaking, the typical person who's recruited into a cult -- personalities vary tremendously. The one thing or two things that they tend to have in common is number one, they seek to have a positive impact on the world. So these people tend to be idealistic, they tend to want to have, you know, they seek meaning, they want to have an impact, they want to do good. That's the bottom line. Almost every person who becomes involved in a cult wants to do good. So that's, that's one thing. The second thing is it's intellectually challenging. Most cultic groups are intellectually and emotionally, psychologically challenging. And people. You know, cognitive dissonance theory tells us that the more effort we put into something, the more we're going to value it. And cults, of course, demand full, you know, all your efforts, basically.


Steve Martorano 

And that last point is also evidence of why it's so very difficult to change someone's mind. The more effort they put into the belief system, the harder it is to change it. We are talking to Steve Eichel. He is a board-certified and licensed psychologist. He's the president of the International Cultic Studies Association. They've been around since 1979. They meet all over the world to discuss this because cults are all over the world. This is the Behavioral Corner. Do not go away.


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Steve Martorano 

Okay, Doc, let's get back into this because it gets every time you say something, it triggers four or five more thoughts in my head. We just were just talking about the sort of person who might be attracted to cults. They are often intelligent, they are altruistic, do they also not share in common this sense that something's wrong in my life or the world and in order to fix this I've got separate from the larger society. Do they all have that characteristic?


Dr. Steve Eichel 

The first part of your statement? Yes. The second part is something that they, that's what the cult tells them, they don't usually go into a group saying I need to separate myself from society. They usually, in fact, most people become involved with cults who want to influence society. You know, that's part of their desire, but the cult will then eventually tell them to maintain their purity, you know, to maintain their, their spiritual purity, their political purity, whatever kind of purity, it is always some form of purity. To maintain your purity, you need to disconnect from the fill in the blank, satanist, fascist, communist, radical Islamist whatever, whatever label you want to put in there to separate yourself from the rest of society because they will corrupt you.


Steve Martorano 

You know, it's just amazing. This notion of purity runs across the spectrum of this behavior and other behaviors, less harmful behaviors. But it does go to the original sin, it goes to this point, that's somewhere we're wired to say. We're not worthy. We're not right. Something needs to be fixed. How do we do it? Do you do it through religion? Do it through substances, you can do it through cult behavior, but it gets back to this notion that there's a deep sense that we're not right. Right? 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Yeah. 


Steve Martorano 

So let's talk about identify some, and I this is dicey, I understand, but I assume you think Scientology is a cult? 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Yes. 


Steve Martorano 

Without a doubt. 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Yes. 


Steve Martorano 

I know, recently, we all were enthralled with the HBO series about Nexium. 


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Right. 


Steve Martorano 

And that's another one where I looked at that, and I thought, these people are as dumb as a box of rocks. I can't believe it. But now that I hear you talk about it, I understand it. They're a cult correct?


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Yeah, absolutely.


Steve Martorano 

I mean, if you are branding people in a bonding ritual, literally branding, that's a pretty good tip that you're recalling,


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Especially if the brand includes the leader's initials. Let me back up for a moment. You know, I get asked that a lot. And, and one of the things I really think it's important to understand is that what I really work at and what we what people in the field tend to work at is not whether or not a group is a cult, but are their cultic processes. Because, for example, there are what some people refer to as one on one cults. Most people refer to them as a course of controlling abusive relationships. So we're only talking to people there, right? 


Steve Martorano 

Yes, yes.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Let's say a husband and a wife. Is that a cult? No. Is it does it involve cultic processes? Absolutely.


Steve Martorano 

Yes, yes.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

We need to separate those two things out. And I'm way more comfortable talking about cultic processes than I am talking about a group that is a cult. ISKCON is an example. ISKCON - the Hare Krishna's - in the United States, back in the 70s, and 80s, were absolutely identified by most people as a cult. But after the death of Prabhupada, the governing body Council of ISKCON, at least in the United States, there's a reform movement within it. And ISKCON is not the same ISKCON now as it was in 1975. There are a number of other religious and probably a few political groups that also would qualify as having evolved away from being a cultic group. Most often that happens when the leader dies.


Steve Martorano 

I think I understand completely what you're saying. Because if we begin to try to identify groups, like cults, it's a slippery slope. One man's cult is another man's baseball fan.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

That's exactly right. Because the cultic process involves a cultic relationship. So, you know, it's a cult, any individual. Let me give you a really good example. My dissertation -- my doctoral dissertation was on deprogramming. It's the only dissertation that I'm aware of that was on deprogramming to do that dissertation. I observed a number of deprogramming, and then one from beginning to end. And that was the main subject of my dissertation. But at any rate, there was one deprogramming that I went to. There were two guys, two boys. I think they were brothers, but I'm not sure. And they were in the Hare Krishna. And so they were quote, unquote, kidnapped, taken to a safe house. And you know that the deprogrammers were there. Well, within the first night, I was there to observe. And within the first night, it turned out that these two boys, right, they were involved in the Krishna drug smuggling operation, which we all knew about. The Krishna is at that time, would go to India, hollow out idols, put drugs in them, and then bring them back, and because they religious monks, you know, they were treated by customs in the same way that you and I would be. This was an ongoing But well,


Steve Martorano 

If they were, if they were like the rest of us, we avoided them.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Right, exactly. True that. So, these boys were going back and forth, they were skimming off of that. They were so much on their own on the side and making a lot of money. So when that came out, it was like, why would they leave?


Steve Martorano 

Yeah, these were, these were con artists.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Right. These were kind of artists who wandered into the Krishna's has found a good deal and, you know, and I'm making, we're making a lot of money at that point. So you have to understand that it's, it's one back in the 70s. You know, there was a zombie theory of cult membership that, you know, they were all we're all blind, glassy-eyed zombie, you know, etc. And that's just not true. It's just...


Steve Martorano 

Yeah, there is something to the notion that these people can't be brainwashed that there


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Can be or can't be?


Steve Martorano 

Can be. Cultist. I mean, brainwashing is a principle feature, isn't it?


Dr. Steve Eichel 

All of us can be. Again, once again, unless you're blatant -- unless you're really psychotic, or a sociopath. We're all brainwashed at various points in our lives because it's brainwashing is social influence. That's what it is.


Steve Martorano 

Steve Eichel, our guest. Dr. Eichel deals with this topic, as you can see, in a very learned way, real quickly, is there any protection against becoming a cult member?


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Um, yes, I think the best protection is, of course, education. Self-awareness is important. And the single most important thing that I asked people to do is take time. If you get recruited into something for anything, yes. If I came up to you and said, I have a Tesla that I can sell you for $20,000, what would you do? Right? You didn't investigate me? You want to look at Tesla, right? Do you want to check it out? Sure. Obviously, not, you can't buy a Tesla for 20 grand. So you know, it's like, the sidewalks of New York when I used to live in New York, and you know, the people come up to you, Hey, man, I've got you to know, this gold watch, it's fake. So the first thing you have to do most cult recruiters, and this is one of the ways you can distinguish between someone who's ethical and unethical in their attempt to recruit you. Most cult recruiters will want you to sign up now, you got to do it now. All right, the world's gonna end, every second count, we have to save you got to clear the planet, and every person in every moment counts. So don't wait until next week, come to whatever we're doing. Now, the biggest advice I can give to people is when you hear that runaway look into it, talk to people consult experts, okay? Look into what your what you might be getting involved in number one. Number two, understand the foot in the door technique. Right, which is, every salesperson knows this. Right? And that involves, you know, not making big demands initially, right? Um, you know, in Scientology, you know, yes, I would like you to do the bridge to freedom and become an OT 8, but you don't have to. Just take the communications course that will improve that in and of itself will improve your life. All right. So the course of your communication it doesn't even cost me anything or cost me a minimal amount of money. What harm can that be? That's a foot in the door technique. All right. Any good salesperson knows that you know, you don't? Well, in sales, of course, it's called upselling. Right? You know, so you get the person a little bit you know, you're going to buy a car, now I'm going to sell you, you know, the big package with it, the extended warranty, the...


Steve Martorano 

...undercoating and all that...


Dr. Steve Eichel 

...blah blah blah. So that's what helps do when people need to understand that when a group says this isn't gonna be a big deal for you, you're not gonna change your major life. Scientology says you can be a practicing Christian or Jew or Hindu, we are not you can be that and be a Scientologist, which is true, unless you really get deeply involved. That's the other point I want to make clear. With the bigger cults, there's usually an intergroup. That's very clear, quote-unquote, brainwashed. And then a lot of people kind of on the...


Steve Martorano 

...periphery. Yeah. Well, you know, what's interesting about that, about that whole, before warned, it always reminds me of cliches are all true. That's how they became cliches. And the one that comes to mind here is if somebody's selling you something that appears too good to be true. It's too good to be true. So you know, start from there. Steve Eichel, will you come back and hang with this? We have a lot more to talk about this. Sure. I appreciate it. And the rest of y'all, don't forget to follow us, Facebook, Instagram, all those other one's other places. And catch us next time on the Behavioral Corner. Take care, buddy.


Dr. Steve Eichel 

Thank you very much for allowing me to be here.


Unknown Speaker 

That's it for now. And make us a habit of hanging out at the behavioral corner. And when we're not hanging, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, on the Behavioral Corner.

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