The Behavioral Corner 

Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while. 

Steve Martorano 

Hi, everybody, welcome once again to the Behavioral Corner. I'm Steve Martorano and this is the Behavioral Corner. This is my corner, I hold court here and one of the things we love about the Behavioral Corner that we, you know, talk about life, I like to refer to it as "a podcast about everything". It's all underwritten by our great partner's Retreat, Behavioral Health and we're here to talk about the way we live, the choices we make, and how those decisions impact our spiritual, physical, and mental health. That's what the behavioral corners are all about, and you're welcome to hang with us. That's the whole deal. It's a hang. One of the other great things is that you never know who's gonna walk by the Corner, come out of the bodega by a newspaper over there to a newsstand. And turns out it's an old pal, a very old pal, great, a great friend of this program in all of its incarnations, and that is our friend, Rhona Epstein. We're going to talk about food and eating disorders. And I think a context that you're probably not expecting. It has to do with food addictions, about which more later but let me tell you about Rhona, she is a clinical psychologist, she works with individuals and couples and, and groups and provide counseling services. Yeah, that's pretty much how we came to know. Rhona and her work, we were fascinated by the idea that someone could actually be addicted to food. How's that possible? So let's begin there. I know some of your treatment is or maybe all of your treatment is based on the twelve-step method, which for most people means addiction. How can you get addicted to food? How's it work?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, I know it is sort of fascinating. And I think a lot of us joke about food addiction, probably more like, oh, these chips are addictive, or oh my gosh, have a bite of this. It's addictive. And then we laugh and just go ahead and have it. But I think for most people, it's not they don't think of it as a serious addiction. Unless you're the person with the addiction. You know, we all grow up sort of knowing that alcohol and cocaine, and heroin is addictive. And we're warned, be careful, that's addictive, and you kind of grow up knowing that but with food like sugar, for example, which is highly addictive, actually, according to science, eight times more addictive than cocaine in the brain. But we're not taught that it's addictive, we're taught that it's actually given to us as a reward. It's like, you know when you do well, you get a candy treat, or, you know, when we celebrate, we have cake, and we have cookies, and we party with food. And so we don't ever really have the same negative, scary feelings about it. And yet, people who have problems with food often start their addictive behavior when they're really young. And they start hiding and sneaking and some of the same behaviors you see, in substance-abusing people, you start seeing in little children with sugar, the same behaviors you see, you know, with, you know, hiding cookies, hiding candy, stealing from the local store, because they can't get enough. And it can get really bad, you know, like to the point where people are severely obese or bulimic and completely obsessed and completely out of control. So, you know, if you look at these substance abuse criteria, the issues are identical.

Steve Martorano 

You don't even have to have an elastic imagination, to see how it perfectly fits the definition, the classic definition of an addiction. It's interesting too because unlike other substances that are abused, even alcohol is not as readily available, and abundant as food is in terms of being able to abuse it. And sugar is fascinating. Tell me if I'm wrong about this, is it not true? That for many, many years now, the food industrial complex has used its influence, to condition us as consumers to fear fat and disregard sugar. And they've done this with various studies where they tried to make it seem as though saturated fats are the enemy to divert your attention from the fact that they're loading everything they make with as much sugar as they can. That's pretty much what they've been doing right?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Yes, actually, one of my favorite books on this subject is Gary Taubes' book The Case Against Sugar. And he really documents this whole issue from the beginning of when sugar industry and how it developed in this country. And what you see is actually the politicians hiding information when people beginning to show signs of being ill like getting diabetes and heart disease. And they started to cover up the science that was coming out, and how they were showing a definite increase in these illnesses of obesity and all these things, because of the food industry, you know, and everybody wanting more of it. And they would, they've just kept on having it, but actually, to somewhere along the line, I think if you look at the history, it was at the time that they decided that somehow fat was bad when they started taking fat out of the food and replacing it with sugar in order to make the food taste good. And the obesity epidemic started at that point. So while they were trying to fix our weight, lowering fat, they increased our weight instead of by adding sugar.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I read some of that excerpt from that book. And, I mean, they went so far as to fund academic and scientific research that ultimately was slanted to, you know, yes. upset the whole eating pyramid, and convince us that that sugar was not as dangerous it is. Sugar is amazing, it's pernicious that we all know, if you have a sweet tooth, it has all the characteristics of addiction, you crave it. If you don't have it, there is something like a withdrawal, right?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, a person who has sugar addiction, definitely have withdrawal symptoms. My clients when they're getting off of sugar, they go through withdrawal.

Steve Martorano 

It's amazing too because we know that addictions are a brain disease, the drugs wind up, rewiring the way you think and the choices you make sure the same is true of food. You make this distinction in your practice because you're one of the few people I've ever heard of who treat eating problems or disorders. On the 12 step model. What's the distinction you draw, if any, between an eating disorder and eating addictions? Or is there a distinction between them?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, I don't think everybody who has a problem with food has an addiction.

Steve Martorano 

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

You know, I think it's true with even substance abuse, I suppose when a person presents, you don't assume that I mean if a person can control their alcohol use, you know, they might not need to go into a 12 step program and, or go into rehab and go to meetings, and the whole nine yards, they might just need to learn how to drink like a lady or drink like a gentleman, you know, they can learn to do that, then, you know, like, I've met people, I had somebody come to see me, and she was just her husband was working at night, and she had a little baby, and she was just bored. And she was eating out of boredom. And we figured it out. Like she has never binged her whole life. She didn't have a normal eating disorder history, like my majority of my client, she wasn't complicated. She wasn't deeply troubled, she just had started this habit of binge eating at night while she was sitting there alone. And you know, it was, it wouldn't be like a really easy fix like she found something else to do with her time. Eating, you know, like, that's a behavioral problem. It's not an addiction, in the sense of somebody who's really hooked and needs to get abstinent and need to program. If you can train yourself to eat right, then you should have your dessert, you know, but if you can't eat that, and learn, if it's always going to be like if you eat one cookie, then you're never going to stop thinking about cookies, and you're gonna keep wanting them, and you keep craving them, and they keep thinking about them and they make it out of your mind, then you may be an addict, you know, that's, it's different than somebody who has self-control. Some people might just occasionally be like, Oh, I had a really stressful day. And they might just want to take the edge off with some food. And I guess if they're okay with that. I mean, that's a little bit of addictive behavior. Yeah. But that's not the same as the person whose life is being destroyed.

Steve Martorano 

Well, that's the difference, obviously, that when you become captive to that behavior, you want to be a social leader, like you'd like to be a social drinker. And the emotional component here is what's fascinating because you talked about a recent client who was filling up the boredom, the emptiness with food. I know people who eat when they're anxious. Have you seen that? 

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Absolutely. Sure. All the feelings. All the feelings. That's how I stay in business forever because once you stop eating, and then you realize the person has been using food for everything. Everything you feel sad, you eat, you feel anxious, you feel angry, you feel stressed, you eat, you feel bored you if you're lonely, I mean everything.

Steve Martorano 

Let's continue on that in that vein for a second. In terms of addiction, and some of the things we know about it. What role do triggers play in eating disorders? And what are some of the triggers?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Oh, well, good. Like all those emotions that we just mentioned. They're all triggers social trends You've got, you know, going to a party, you've got dealing with your family, you've got, you know, work stress the internal stresses of like, I don't feel good enough about myself to be functioning in this life. And so whatever battles are going on internally with confidence and self-esteem and you know, all that, and the body hatred and all that is going on, it's all triggers

Steve Martorano 

In terms of somebody who's binging get people to come to you and are confused as to whether they're actually binging, or they're worried that they might become binging is, is binging something that if you're doing it, you know, you're doing it?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

With food addiction, not everybody binges. It's just like substance abuse disorders like you've got weekend warriors, you've got people who only drink in the evening, you've got people who start in the morning and go all day. I mean, you've got the whole gamut, right? Some people do this type of drug and some people do that type of drug. So it's just the same thing with food, you have the whole thing. I mean, you've got people who starve all day and binge all night, you've got people who are sugar addicts, you've got people who are salty, and crunchy kind of more or savory food kind of people. You've got people who graze all day and never binge, they only get it like a little here little there little bit. And those are the really tough ones. Oftentimes the very obese clients that I work with, don't binge. They eat all day. And they don't even realize that they think, oh, let's just not that much. But it's not that much this. And it's not that much of that.

Steve Martorano 

So when do people come to you? When do they get to you? It's just an interesting thing. If someone is bulimic, or anorexic, they're going to have some physical reactions to this, they're going to be morbidly obese, perhaps they're going to be purging, that that's the kind of manifestation that would get me to someone like you a psychologist trained. But there are other kinds of as you say, people have an ever food addiction problem you they get to you because they're unhappy, or their life is out of balance, and they associate that with food, it would be very hard for me to understand that food might be my problem if it didn't manifest itself in some big way. But it doesn't always work like that, does it? 

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, I think the people who've been out of control are more likely to seek treatment because they feel out of control.

Steve Martorano 

 Right. Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

And so those people are more likely to reach out for help because they really feel crazy. And they end because of the dysfunction that comes with it because the obsession is so bad that you start to not be your moods are all over the place. You really are not as present in your life. It takes over your head. So you're like, in the food day and night. You're either telling yourself you're not going to have it and then you're having like the negotiations, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. And then you always end up failing. And then it's like, and then you hate yourself. You hate your body, you hate what you're doing. And it's so life-sucking. And it's very hard to keep living like that. So I think people when we get to that point, are more likely to get help, then, of course, people who can't stand being overweight, they'll come for help. A lot of times, you'll be in denial about the food problem, people really are focused on their weight, not their food problem. So they want to fix the weight problem, but they don't really recognize food addiction and that's really where my job is hard.

Steve Martorano 

That does make your job difficult when someone comes to you, and because of cosmetic reasons, they don't like the way they look, their bodies are not right. How quickly do you get to the point where you can say to them, you don't need a psychologist, you need to go on a diet, you need to stop eating. I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, some people would just go Oh, go on a diet. What I'm saying is there are co-occurring things going on when somebody's got a food problem.

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

When I do history with somebody, all of them have been on 100 diets. I mean, the way you get to where they are when they come to me is, you know, the typical situation is you lose weight on a diet, then you gain it plus them. And then you keep doing that your whole life loses gain, lose gain lose gain, and then every time you do it, you gain more and more and more. So they know they need something different and it's not like a diet. It's a bandaid. And we don't talk diet talk without words like a bad word. It's like not you know like we don't go and talk about diets. We do recommend food plans for the sake of learning how to get rid of drug foods and drug-food behavior. Because you know, there are foods that are addictive and there's behavior that's addictive, and that has to change. But the focus of treatment for this is really an inside out change. You do have to address the food so that the person learns to eat proper portions and not use excess food for drugging reasons because overeating itself even a little bit of excess food trips the wire and create more excess eating. So you have to teach a person how to live with normal portions of food. And we have to teach a person that. The goal is to end overeating and to end the addiction. And the added benefit is the person's weight will come back.

Steve Martorano 

And their health would improve as well. It's interesting because the goal of most 12 step programs -- all 12 step programs is abstinence. That can't possibly be your goal. Or you are the client's goal because we can't eat we've got to eat.

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, that's not altogether true. Because I mean, alcoholics still drink. They just don't drink alcohol. You've not addicted to all foods. A person not addicted to broccoli and chicken, and salmon and blueberries and yogurt. They're addicted to ice cream and cookies and all that refined junk foods that you're getting in the fast food places that you're passing.

Steve Martorano 

Sugar is the culprit. 

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, it's one. Sugar, refined carbohydrates, all processed food, all the things in the market that you can't read the labels there. That's not real food.

Steve Martorano 

Well, someone told me you shouldn't eat anything. It's wrapped in plastic anyway.

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

If you can't read the words, it's not food.

Steve Martorano 

On the Corner, we're talking about her specialty, which is eating disorders, and food addictions. We've spoken about this many times with Rhona, it's it's fascinating because most people go addicted to food. What are you kidding? I just love donuts. You know, a Rhona. I know Rhona's backstory, it's fascinating as well. She comes to her work, from personal experience with this. You struggled with eating disorders when you were younger, right?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Yeah, I did. I was bulimic. I always joke around about this, but I feel like I came out of the womb looking for ice cream. I was a kid who was sugar seeking, you know, always eating candy cookies. I lived on Pop-Tarts, Captain Crunch, you know, spaghetti. Pretty much white flour and sugar. It's all ate my whole childhood.

Steve Martorano 

So this is interesting. How much blame Do you give your family? Your mom? I mean, did you ever have to confront her going? I will have messed up because you fed me this? Whenever you wanted me to be quiet. Did you give me something to eat? Did you go through all that?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, you know, I did have a chat with them about it. I mean, I think my parents had their own thing with food. I mean, clearly, there was a problem there. Because I mean, there were a lot of crazy mixed messages. My mom was very, very critical of me about my weight. And that was so hurtful. So when you combine that with a house full of sugar, I have evil eyes looking at me because I'm becoming chubby. And then I had the food stuck under my nose all over the place. And so I would eat wipe out entire boxes of Oreos with double stuff. And then they reappear in the drawer. But then with evil eyes looking at me because I was getting fat. So the whole thing was totally insane. But I don't really think that my mother knew what she was doing. Of course, there was something really wrong with what was going on in the house. A lot was wrong. And so yeah, of course.

Steve Martorano 

How a success or how long were you able to successfully hide the more serious aspects of your eating disorders, your bulimia, for instance, were you able to do that pretty successfully?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

I always say my parents were probably asleep at the wheel. I mean, I was taking amphetamines every day that I got from my friend. I mean, I was doing drugs.

Steve Martorano 

To suppress your appetite?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Yeah, but I was also smoking pot. So I guess I was sort of crossing each other out. But, you know, the fantasy was that that was supposed to help me lose weight. But surely it wasn't. My parents didn't know that they didn't know I was throwing up, they had to must have known that the half gallons of ice cream were literally disappearing and boxes, you whole jars of peanut butter, and entire boxes of cookies were disappearing. And you could start to see it in my body, you know, but I don't think they really knew the full extent. You know, I was purging in the bathroom right across the hall from where they were sleeping. And at that time, it was a long time ago that was like the late 70s, early 80s. And believe me, it wasn't even in the like we didn't know what that was then that wasn't even. Like I remember when the first little article came out in like some magazine where it was like a tiny little article where someone talked about bulimia and I would think I was like 17 at that time. I had already been full-blown into it. And I didn't even know what I had.

Steve Martorano 

When did you reach that moment when you had to get help? And how did you do it?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, I wanted to kill myself. That was the plan. But I didn't. I ran away for a little bit to my friend's house. I was going to run away to another country. I was trying to find countries that I could live in and be fat where they didn't care. Because I was so hopeless. I didn't we 

Steve Martorano 

You were already fat and nobody cared.

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

I couldn't live with myself. Yeah. And you know, like the alcoholic who gets worse and worse. I mean, it's a progressive problem. So for me it kept getting worse and worse, I used to be that I, I could diet myself down, you know, like I could starve enough to keep my weight, relatively good. But my eating was getting so out of control that I couldn't keep my weight normal. So my weight started increasing. I was so full of despair. But I did end up going to a 12 step program. When I was in my senior year of high school. At that point, I was going to three 12 step programs because I needed them. But the food one was the one I needed the most. And I would say it saved my life.

Steve Martorano 

I want to get to the pandemic, but just a couple of other questions. Men have eating disorders, in spite of the fact that you would think this is an overwhelmingly female problem. Men suffer from this stuff, too, don't they?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Absolutely. Plenty of men, do.

Steve Martorano 

They don't come to you very often do they?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, I'll tell you what, Steve, one of the last times that you and I did an interview together, there was a man who was driving down the road and heard us talking on the radio, and pulled over because he was on his way to the Wawa to get a binge. And he called into the radio program. And he started becoming my client after that because he heard us talking about food addictions.

Steve Martorano 

How about that? Yeah, that was one of the eye-openers for me when we talked about this first time that so many men have these things. Another thing that I wonder about is because I know you counsel couples as well, am I wrong in assuming that there's very often a partner in this and that both a husband and a wife can really be wrapped up in bed, eating disorders, and not be aware of it. Is that the case many times couples have this together?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

There are so many issues around couples, we could have a whole other talk on that, you know, whether it's a couple or a family. I mean, the food issues in the family, you know, there's a lot of pressure in families. I have a male client, he struggles all the time because he wants to eat with his family. And his family. They eat horribly. They want to support him and making better choices. And it's dreadful. He's trying to clean up his act with food, and he doesn't have the support of his family. But then you'll also have other issues where the emotional triggers are coming in, in the couple because that you have, let's say, a compulsive eating wife, with a husband who's judging her and putting her down because of her weight. And he doesn't realize that every time he puts her down, she eats at him. She's just mad.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I often think about people who don't come from backgrounds like ours, an Italian American here, you're Jewish, and food is central. Lots of ethnic groups. It's incredibly central to them. And I will I've often envy those few people I've met, who didn't have that in their lives growing up like mom didn't care about cooking all that much. And they weren't interested in food all that much. And suddenly, food wasn't the central issue in their lives. But what they weren't always thinking about the next thing they were going to eat or you know, where the dinner was going to be, and what should I serve, I always thought they were relieved of the amazing burden of not having to worry about food. But let's bring this thing down around to the, to the elephant in the room, which is of course, the pandemic, which now seems like it's been with us forever. Nothing this epidemic has touched has been made better, that's for sure. How has it affected people with eating disorders?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Well, you know, what, I've seen a couple of things. You know, you would think, really, that it would be worse. I mean, you know, obviously, you're stuck at home, you don't you can't get out. For some people, it means more boredom, more eating more stress with family. So on the other hand, there's a positive aspect, I know that you probably weren't expecting me to say this. But for my clients, they're not driving past the fast-food restaurants, they have more control over their eating. So the ones who have been struggling to put their food plans together, have a better time being able to manage their food plans because they have more time and their home. So there's less temptation, they're not going to restaurants. So they don't have the temptation to the party, and the gatherings where all the junk food is. So they have more of an ability to start to put together there, you know, healthy food plans. The other thing that's also been a bonus is that all the 12 step programs are now online on zoom. And so people who might have been nervous about trying out recovery groups are now able to go to really great meetings all over the world because the meetings are all about online, you can go, like, I've got clients going to meetings in New York City from Philadelphia at 7:15 am. Every morning, and, and they're hitting these great meetings with like 200 people in them. And then there's, you know, other meetings at like nine at night, whatever time a person needs to meet, and they can go, they're going to different countries, different cities. And so people, people are trying things out and actually finding getting the help that they wouldn't normally because you could kind of do it very anonymously. You know you don't even have to show that you're there. You can just listen in. And so I'm feeling like that's been actually a good thing.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, no, that doesn't mean we wanted pandemic to hang around any longer. But that is an interesting irony about this, that it while it's isolating, because we're not allowed to be with each other, it did open up the whole area of telemedicine and that connection, just before we leave the issue of, of 12 steps and eating disorders when you say you treat many people on a 12 step model, you're literally talking about the 12 steps, correct

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

The exact same 12 steps as a and as a matter of fact, if you look at the 12 step programs for food, there are many of them, there's Overeaters Anonymous, there's Food Addicts Anonymous. There's a whole bunch of tons, but they use AA literature, they read AA literature, and they just identify absolutely, with the Alcoholics Anonymous literature, but they use the AA literature because it's the strongest and the best sort of well worded, you know, it really goes straight to it. And I think for people who tend to minimize the food problem, yeah, when they read it in AA way, it makes them look at themselves more seriously. So they can see the addiction more so when they look at themselves, and they say that's me,

Steve Martorano 

I'm not that it's a stigma. But it's certainly as you say, focuses them, they have a real problem. And this is a real program. So if I do that, I can get a handle on this. I know this spirituality plays a big part, in your treatment very often, you know, you know, because you've been in the field a long time, you say greater power, or heaven forbid God, to somebody in the grip of addiction. Some of them are going to run out of the room because that's just not going to work for them. How do you? Well, first let me say story, the only thing I remember from psych 101, believe me, the only thing I remember, was a story that the professor told about Carl Jung had a patient that he was dealing with for years get maybe alcohol, I forget, but it was a severe problem. And Jung, finally, in his judgment said to him, you need spiritual help, go see a priest, I can't help you anymore. And I remember thinking way back then, because I was dumb, then as I am now I went, well, that's a cop-out. He just totally go see a priest. But it turns out, that's powerful for some people, right?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Absolutely. Right. I mean, the whole basis of the 12 steps is that I mean, if you read the stories in the AA book, that's basically the whole message. It's not just abstinence being the goal. But the goal is to find a relationship with God, as you know, as you understand him, and you're right, a lot of people do feel like that's not what they want for they just want to be sober. And for people who go into recovery groups for food, they want to just be thin, may they just want their food under control. They just want to have their weight under control. They really weren't looking for that. But I think what a person is at that place that, like Carl Jung's client, and like a lot of people who end up in these disorders, if you've tried everything else, and you're at the last station on the train, you know, and you've done everything. I think that's what the whole 12 step thing is, it's sort of like if you've done everything and your way isn't working, what do you have to lose, but to try a faith way of doing things? And clearly, there are so many people in the 12 step programs whose lives have been transformed by practicing faith practices. And so it's sort of like even if you believe in the power of the group and what's happening in the group and seeing that maybe if you can't say, God, maybe you see like, some powerful thing that's happening here. Amongst these people whose lives have been changed.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, something over here. Yeah. something out there something transcendent, because what's going on here? Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

The literature though is very clear that that that the big books say it's very clear that the intention is to find a relationship, hopefully with God. And so I think that's really a challenge for people when a person comes to the place where they have settled The faith issue for themselves and they start to feel like they can pray or meditate or find some peace in that it's almost like the food that they always needed or the drug that they always need. It's like the thing, the coping thing that was missing. It's like there was a piece missing. Yeah, we were trying to get in, in our addictive behavior, we're trying to fill up some empty place in ourselves, or trying to, you know, find what we actually needed. But we actually get it kind of in the spiritual arena is where we get that fix that we actually need it.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I can appreciate that I've heard the story so many times about, it's never really articulated any better than you just did, but there is a hole somewhere. And they fill it with drugs, or they fill it with alcohol, or any kind of addictive behavior until a hole goes away. They feel complete. So listen, we got to run. Your book was called Satisfied, right?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

The first one, Food Triggers, was a book that's all about food addiction, and you know all about the whole how it works and how to get free from it. And then I wrote a 90 day inspirational, like, it's like inspirational daily readings, called Satisfied. And then it just came out this week, Satisfied Workbook. And it is a 12 step workbook. It actually goes through the 12 steps. But it's for people who want a deeper spiritual focus, and it's for a specific food. And so it's not, it's a little bit different than what you see in the regular 12 step programs. It's sort of me guiding people through the 12 steps with my sort of way of doing things, but it is the 12 steps and it's a workbook. So... 

Steve Martorano 

How do people get your books?

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

 You can go on my website, Dr. Rhona.com. Dr. r. h. o. n a .com.

Steve Martorano 

We'll put all that stuff up on the website and people will be able to contact you through your website and buy your books and see one of your Tic Toc videos. Because now I know your buddy, Tic Toc star. So we're gonna, your daughter got you doing that. It's great. I've seen them. They're terrific. You want to see Dr. Rona, she'll be on our website soon. Rhona, it's great to see you again. I hope you'll come back on the Corner sometime real soon.

Dr. Rhona Epstein 

Thank you, Steve. It's great to see you. Thanks for having me on the show.

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