CORRECTION:  The Pennsylvania counties that require certification are MONTGOMERY and NORTHAMPTON counties.

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while.

Steve Martorano 
Hey, everybody, welcome to the Behavioral Corner. I'm Steve Martorano always hanging here looking for interesting people. We've been very lucky on a Behavioral Corner. We're always running into interesting people. They always have fascinating things to tell us. And that's certainly the case today was our two guests. First, we got to begin with a little backstory here who would have thought that the travails of a pop star would have shined such a light on something that I didn't know much about, if anything, and I suspect a lot of other people were also in the dark about guardianships. The pop star in question, of course, is Britney Spears. Unless you've been living in a cave, it's hard to avoid the news she's made. She is well beyond her role as a pop star. She as I said, is involved in apparently a titanic battle, to free herself from the guardianship under which she has been subjected by court order for over 13 years. What started as a group of looked like her fans on the corner saying "Free Britany" has sort of metastasize into a much bigger story about what exactly goes on with guardianships. Are they being abused? And how do we protect ourselves against abuse of guardianship? The population is getting older, the baby boomers are entering their eighth decade. Yeah, their eighth decade, it's hard for me to say that. We're not getting any younger. So it's important that we know about guardianship who it affects how we can make sure that the process works the way it should. To that end, we welcome a couple of expert guests to the Behavioral Corner. Sally Hurme is an attorney. She is also involved in something called the National Guardianship Association. She is joined by our other guests. Angie Troutman. Angie is the Certification Director for the Center for Guardianship. Together, I can tell you they, they bring to the table, a lot of information that we're going to cover about guardianship. So that's it, chapter and verse from my end. Hi, ladies. Thanks for joining us on the Behavioral Corner.

Sally Hurme 
Hi there.

Angie Troutman 
Hello.

Steve Martorano 
Before I get down to sort of the nitty-gritty of some questions, am I wrong in assuming that guardianship has the potential to explode in growth, given that the population is getting older -- is old? Angie, are you seeing more people having to be certified for instance?

Angie Troutman 
As more states are requiring certification, then we're obviously seeing more applicants coming our way.

Steve Martorano 
That's the perfect place to begin. I was surprised when you and I talked earlier that not every state requires certification. Tell us what the situation is broadly concerning the different states and different laws governing certification for guardianship.

Angie Troutman 
There are only I believe, nine or 10 states that require certification with our organization. Then there are also a handful of states that have their own state-run certification or registration programs. But that leaves the vast majority of states to require no certification or no special training

Steve Martorano 
The vast majority of states. So, before you get into the process of certifying those let me switch to Sally Hume. Sally, that sounds like the Wild West doesn't sound like any way to run an airline. Why don't we have more uniform across-the-board laws about guardianship?

Sally Hurme 
Getting uniformity among the states on their guardianship laws has been a decade's long process. There is a new model law or uniform law that sort of addresses all of the key points that we've been talking about this past year, called the Uniform Guardianship, Conservatorship, and Other Protective Arrangements Act. It's been developed by national experts through the uniform law commission, but it's up to the individual states to determine whether they want to incorporate these innovations into their own current guardianship laws. Most guardianship laws have been around since the 80s and 90s when there was a major reform movement. But there's still so much more that could be done in the various states. But guardianship is a state process. So each state can do whatever they really feel compelled to do in determining what the guardianship process is going to look like.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, that sounds like sort of standard bureaucratic inertia, but we'll get back to that in a second. Angie, tell us about the Center for Guardianship Certification. How old an organization is it?

Angie Troutman 
Sally can clarify that I believe in the 90s CGC kind of broke off from NGA to handle certification exclusively.

Steve Martorano 
By the way, Sally is a consultant to the certification organization. Take us a bit through the process for those locations where certification is required. What's the process, Angie, what do people have to do to become certified?

Angie Troutman 
Pending on the applicant's educational background, they have to complete either 10, 20, or 30 hours of coursework or training in order to qualify for our certification exam. If an applicant has a college degree in a related field, they would need 10 hours of coursework. If they do not have a related college degree, but they have a current license or a current certification in a related field, they would need 20 hours of coursework. And if they have only a high school education, then, in that case, they would need 30 hours of coursework before they can qualify for our exam. And they would then, you know, essentially, register to take an exam. And we require 20 hours of continuing education during every two years certification period. So we do require that they continue to learn.

Steve Martorano 
Your organization doesn't provide the casework for them, or does the coursework? Yes,

Angie Troutman 
No, we do not sell any education. We just explicitly do the exam. So applicants can go to their state-level guardianship associations to find conferences and seminars, the National Guardianship Association offers online webinars and they also host conferences annually. So really, it's kind of up to the individual to, you know, seek out that educational opportunities related to guardianship and that has to be done before they can take the exam.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. Does the applicant's status or relationship to the person they wish to become a guardian for have any bearing on this case?

Angie Troutman 
It does not? It does not? So whether they're practicing as a professional guardian, or as a family guardian, the requirements are the same, the qualifications are the same.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, Sally, there are professional guardianships, guardians -- who do this for a living?

Sally Hurme 
Yes, indeed, there are. Although we don't have precise data on who is a guardian or who is under guardianship. But our best estimate is that 85 to 90% of the guardians that have been appointed are family members. And the professional guardians are definitely the minority of individuals who are appointed. So anyone can be certified. But most of those individuals who seek certification or require to have certification, are the professional guardians who serve people that they're not related to.

Steve Martorano 
And that pool of guardians is the people who do it as a profession. In other words, a court has access to a list of those names if no family members are available, or, anybody else? That's how they find them?

Sally Hurme 
Most courts do maintain a list of individuals in those states where it's required, they would know who has been certified or not. In all the other states. certification is definitely voluntary. And CGC has many certified guardians in states where it's not required, but the professional is recognized that being certified is as an important sort of a badge of I agree to hold myself to standards of practice. I have studied and prepared for the exam. I know I have to continue my education during certification and then they are subject to discipline if they violate any of the standards of practice. So anyone can become certified. But most of the individuals who are certified are professionals, and the family members are exempt in the mandatory states from being certified.

Steve Martorano 
That was my next question. That percentage of people that Angie, you see for certification sounds like they're overwhelmingly professionals in those areas where you're certifying them. And family members are exempt -- is that what I understood you say? Okay, well, when we say family members do we mean very close family members, or can it be any family member, no matter how distant the relationship might have been?

Sally Hurme 
Oh, well, it depends on the family circumstances. If there's a petition for guardianship, then there is a need to identify who can serve. The petitioner or the person seeking guardianship typically has someone in mind. It could be the person petitioning, or someone in the family that they want to serve. So it's really up to the petitioner to recommend, at least who would be appointed. If there is no one suitable within the family, then the court will have to seek someone outside of the immediate family or friends or neighbors or someone who is already in the individual support network.

Steve Martorano 
And that's true abilities at the discretion of the judge, the court makes the determination if they're suitable.

Sally Hurme 
Yes.

Steve Martorano 
Okay. I mean, the more you find out about this patchwork of requirements and certifications the more you realize that there are just gaping holes in the system that I suppose have led to situations like Britney Spears finds herself in, and other people now looking at that circumstance wonder, "I'm okay now, but if I become incapacitated am I going to get caught up in this thing? Where strangers are going to be making decisions about everything?" It's a terrifying thought. Angie, do you want to say something?

Sally Hurme 
I absolutely have the answer for that: And that's doing advanced planning. It's important to have a power of attorney. Have a healthcare power of attorney or an advanced directive. Do the planning if you become incapacitated. Who do you want to make decisions for you? Advanced planning is essential to avoid guardianship.

Steve Martorano 
And those instruments you just described the power of attorney and the medical...

Sally Hurme 
Advanced directive.

Steve Martorano 
...they would supersede any effort for anybody to come in from the outside and say, "Aunt Mabel can't take care of herself, I have to do it."

Sally Hurme 
As long as there's no abuse by the agent, the court will look to see how that person is taking care of Aunt Mabel. But if Aunt Maple has selected Susie, the neighbor, to be her financial agent and is doing it that is considered a less restrictive alternative. And there's lots of focus in guardianship reform efforts now, just to avoid having the court select your decision-maker and emphasizing the importance of you selecting your decision-maker when you can't make decisions for yourself.

Steve Martorano 
Angie, let me ask you, you are as we speak, now headquartered in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, correct?

Angie Troutman 
Correct.

Steve Martorano 
So I'm sitting in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh. How many counties in Pennsylvania require certification?

Angie Troutman 
Currently, only two -- that's Montgomery County and Northumberland North Hampton. And that's because the judges there issued a standing rule requiring it there.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. I don't know that you have the answer to this. But why would maybe Sally can jump in here? Why would judges in one county or two counties here have one view on certification and every other county some other view? In fact, no view, right? I don't understand this. We don't have different traffic certification processes or medical degree processes. county by county, why in the world with something as critical as who's going to take care of you if you can't take care of yourself be left so wide open? It's astonishing to me. And let me pivot to that to go back to the Britney Spears things. Because after all, it's the best example. We've had, I think, as the general public. For 13 years now. She has been literally controlled just to word every decision, both professional and medical, and I guess private as well controlled by her guardian, who is her father. She's fighting desperately now to get out from under that she's making some headway. Are you saying that that happened to her because she did not have the foresight to plan? I mean, she was just a kid who -- why would she be thinking about, you know, down the road. Let's talk a little bit about the loss of autonomy, which is what this is about. I understand if you have mental difficulties and you can't take care of yourself. Mostly, this is for disabled people who can't take care of themselves. But the idea that she was put under guardianship does restrictive as this because she might have been being taken advantage of by some outside forces who wanted her money, or even that she was abusing substances. She's not the first entertainer who's ever thrown her money away, or even abused drugs. How did she wind up sort of a wholly-owned property of her father?

Sally Hurme 
I cannot comment on the history of the Britney Spears case. All I can say is that it is an example of where guardianship reform is definitely heading in the less restrictive alternative, or that the guardianship itself is limited to the specific decision-making needs of that individual. That's where we're heading. Can't comment on what happened -- what was going on 13 years ago?

Steve Martorano 

Let me ask you that in a general sense: Is this a common circumstance that someone in guardianship would be presented with at some point. Total it seems to me loss of her own rights to make any decisions. Is that a typical situation?

Sally Hurme 
It's a declining situation. It is a problem that -- a well-recognized problem by guardian advocates -- that there are too many guardianships for people who really don't need guardianship. And those who do need guardianship don't need plenary or full guardianship, that takes away all of their rights. And this is the drive and the emphasis that we're trying to convince state legislatures to recognize and to adapt. That guardianship is not a one size fits all, for every person. That people have individual needs and do need two forms of protection. It should be as gentle, or as tailored to the individual circumstances. We recognize that there are people who could have a modification, there should be more court review of the case as it goes on, and work toward how can we restore rights as quickly as possible.

Steve Martorano 
Because circumstances change and the person under guardianship may be in a different situation later on. Angie, let me issue in terms of certifying these people. I mean, sadly, the Spears situation, as I said shined the light on this thing. When folks, I hope to hear you talk about how few locations even the state of Pennsylvania need certification, they should be galvanized to find out why that is. I mean, there are some people who just don't measure up, correct?

Sally Hurme 
That doesn't qualify for certification.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah.

Sally Hurme 
Yeah, I mean, anyone with any kind of felony background, we do a criminal background check. If you have a felony, then you obviously are disqualified. But if you, you know, fail the exam, you're not qualified for certification. And in the states where certification is required, you therefore would not be eligible to practice.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, you say criminal background checks. Do you do financial background checks on people?

Angie Troutman 
Having bad credit alone would not disqualify someone from serving.

Steve Martorano 
No, it wouldn't. But Sally, it's certainly a red flag when we hear about "the rackets." And that's the word the critics use this sort of guardianship industrial complex that's out there lurking. And these are people who swoop in, look for vulnerable elderly folks who have some assets and just want to drain their assets. Don't you think financial background checks are necessary?

Sally Hurme 
It's something that we have debated within CGC and within the National Guardianship Association and all the other guardian advocates. What should happen in this process is that the court should ask the individual about their financial savviness. If they can't maintain their own bank account, if they're struggling to pay their own debts, then the court should be asking that question before appointing that individual. But remember, most of these people who are appointed as guardians are family members. And if there is an available appropriate family member, that family member is going to be appointed. Even if that family member may have you know, a bad credit score is going to be the family member, or is it going to be a stranger? And that's the conundrum that most courts experience. Not these Britney Spears $26 million in an asset kind of cases. He says those are few and far between. And most individuals under guardianship do not have assets. That's why we have to have public guardians who can serve as the guardian for those individuals who have no resources.

Steve Martorano 
You know, we're running out of time here. It's a gigantic topic, it covers a lot of ground.

Sally Hurme 
It does.

Steve Martorano 
And, you know, I'm grateful for your time, I would just like to sum up ask each of you that in light of the publicity that Spears case generated, Angie, I'll begin with you. From a certification standpoint, what would you like to see the result - come as a result of what we now know about what happened to her?

Sally Hurme 
I would like to see states require certification, to have minimum standards. And as an individual, as a human, I want to make sure that I'm choosing you to know, the person most qualified, most capable to help me. And I would think that anyone would want that,

Steve Martorano 
Sally to you as well, what would you like to see the result in all of this intense interest? And also, I'd like to ask you whether the notion as I mentioned earlier, of rampant abuse, is as big as some people believe it to be.

Sally Hurme 
I think that there is no rampant abuse. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) in the Senate Special Committee on Aging, looked at this issue of how much abuse in guardianship there is on multiple occasions over the past decade or so. And they have not been able to identify, other than this headline story here and this headline story there, where abuse is happening, and abuse in many circumstances where the GAO and their extensive research looked for abuse. The abuse was happening by family members who had been appointed. But what I hope to see come from the Britney Spears case is that recognition of what we as guardian advocates have been talking about how guardianship the process should be more selective, more tailored to the individual's needs, and periodically reviewed to make sure there are opportunities to restore rights as the person's condition improves,

Steve Martorano 
yeah, with less heavy lifting. And apparently, Britney Spears is demonstrating. Anyway, thank you so much, ladies, it's as I said, just sort of the surface of this issue, which is huge. Angie, if people want to know more about your organization, or how to become certified, how do they -- how do they find out?

Angie Troutman 
They can visit our website, it's www.guardianshipcert.org or they can call our office area code 717-238-4689

Steve Martorano 
Surely. We'll put that up on the Behavioral Corner website and everything. Sally Hurme, Angie Troutman thanks so much, ladies for your time, and for shedding light on this.

Sally Hurme 
Thank you for shedding light on the issues and trying to help improve guardianship.

Steve Martorano 
Well, I certainly want to make a little effort towards that. And it'd be nice if we could free Brittany too but we'll see what happens. Again, thank you for joining us on the Behavioral Corner. For you guys. hanging with u, thanks so much. Don't forget to follow us on all those places you're supposed to follow us and look for the podcast wherever they're peddling podcasts these days. And we'll catch you next time when the Behavioral Corner.

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