The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while

Steve Martorano 
Hi, everybody, welcome to the Behavioral Corner. My name is Steve Martorano -- this is where I hang. This is where I meet very interesting people who always bring to the corner great stories that relate to what we talked about, which is behavioral health. And that's a huge topic covers, well, everything. That's what this podcast is about. Everything we do, everything we believe the decisions we make, and how it affects our behavioral health. We're going to go back and touch on a topic we touch upon very often, you're on the Behavioral Corner because it's such a big problem. And that is trauma. And the resulting post-traumatic stress that often occurs as a result, we like to go back. It's worth talking about trauma a lot because it's a big problem. But we like to go back to it in particular, as we go into November with, of course, the attended Veterans Day. And, you know, the military is one of the places where you'll find a lot of trauma, and certainly a lot of PTSD. It also occurs in other walks of life, of course, first responders and police are also victims of this, inordinately, I might say. And we got a great guest for you because he touches both of those bases. Our guest is Matthew Marin, Matthew is both a military veteran, a veteran, the United States Navy, and also a career law enforcement officer with the Houston Police Department, 14 years, highly decorated. And now he joins us as a published author. We'll talk about his book, Silent Screams just ahead. And he is the National Director of our great good friends, the Birdwell Foundation for PTSD. Matthew, thanks so much.

Matthew Marin 
Thank you for having me, sir.

Steve Martorano 
Matthew, and I'll give you a little behind the scenes. We've been struggling with technology here for a couple of minutes. But we think we've got it squared away. Anyway, Matt, let's begin with the Birdwell Foundation because they're great, great friends of this program, great supporters, and a great help. You know, you've come to us through Roger Marshall, who, who's the head fella, and he's a great friend of the show, we wanted to thank him, but tell us how you got involved with Burwell.

Matthew Marin 
I've been helping out veterans and first responders. On my own time, for years now. We adopt families of first responders who get injured on the job or are veterans that that get injured and can't work, stuff like that. And we usually adopt families like that for Christmas. And we try to, you know, do our own peer support, you know, brother to brother type stuff because it's needed. So I did that on my own time. And I've been through a lot of trouble myself and fought PTSD myself. So I know how it is and how hard it can hit. <<baby noise>> Sorry, that's my baby in the background. Okay. Yeah. So one day, Mr. Birdwell himself came to the Houston Police Department, the union and asked our board if they knew an officer who's been through, been through a lot of trauma, and made it out the other end and is willing to help people get over their issues and, and fight their, their war within. My name came up and I was offered a spot on the Birdwell Foundation and I jumped on it and it has been great ever since.

Steve Martorano 
Check out -- those of you who are interested in finding out more about and they're a great organization to Birdwell Foundation, it's BirdwellFoundation.org. A lot of good stuff there. So Matt, let's begin with your experience with trauma. I guess you told me earlier, you first experienced trauma while in the military while in the Navy. Is that right?

Matthew Marin 
Yes, sir.

Steve Martorano 
And it festered with you and stayed with you since you didn't identify it as a traumatic experience, and followed you over into your career as a police officer. And then things got worse there.

Matthew Marin 
Well, I knew there was a traumatic event in the military. There was a shipwreck and I was on the USS JFK. And it was an aircraft carrier. A fishing boat hit us and we killed everybody on the fishing boat and I saw everything happen right below me. And it's kind of...kind of helpless. You can do nothing about it 98 feet in the air, you know.

Steve Martorano 
When did that happen?

Matthew Marin 
I want to say it was 2003? 2003? 2004?

Steve Martorano 
How old are you at that point?

Matthew Marin 
Oh man, I was 19.

Steve Martorano 
That's a traumatic event. And then into law enforcement. You've had a distinguished career. It's not been without some problems and difficulties. The police work is everyday little events that by themselves don't look dramatic, but are until they accumulate. During this period of time you are going through stuff like that -- and not identifying it as post-traumatic stress -- were you self-medicating?

Matthew Marin 
Yes. So first of all, I didn't know what post-traumatic stress was.

Steve Martorano 
Right.

Matthew Marin 
I never even heard of the term, actually. Ever. But um, yes, I was self-medicating. I was...I was drinking a lot. After my...my first shooting,

Steve Martorano 
You have more than once used your service weapon.

Matthew Marin 
Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
Have you ever killed anybody?

Matthew Marin 
Yeah, a few.

Steve Martorano 
A few...a few people.

Matthew Marin 
Yes, sir.

Steve Martorano 
Can I ask you a question?

Matthew Marin 
Yes.

Steve Martorano 
What is it...what is it like to kill somebody?

Matthew Marin 
I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Steve Martorano 
We often think of, obviously, the person who's dead as being the only victim of that event, but it can...it's...it's horrible, right? I mean, no matter what the situation -- you've just ended somebody's life.

Matthew Marin 
Oh, yeah.

Steve Martorano 
How many police shootings have you been involved in?

Matthew Marin 
I've been involved in five, but I've actually shot my duty weapon twice.

Steve Martorano 
Okay. Both times result in fatalities?

Matthew Marin 
Yes, sir.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. In what way did your PTSD affect that behavior? You know, I mean, were you under so much stress and trauma, that maybe you use your gun too quickly, or in the wrong circumstances or what?

Matthew Marin 
I did my job really well, on the street. I believe I did. And others did, too. It's when I'm alone, that's when I started noticing my PTSD. Or that or sometimes, if I get called to a floater, which is a dead body in the water, sometimes I get flashbacks, you know, from the military side. At first, I didn't know how to deal with it. And then after training, a lot of training and after a lot of therapy and speaking to my peers, venting, keeping my mind busy -- you learn how to deal with these symptoms, to live a normal, healthy life, you know. You manage your symptoms enough to do that.

Steve Martorano 
Unfortunately, a lot of first responders and even military guys are not aware that they're suffering from an actual thing.

Matthew Marin 
Correct.

Steve Martorano 
And as you did self-medicate, high incidence of alcoholism among those two groups. When did you begin to be aware that this wasn't normal do you know what I mean -- that it wasn't normal to feel this way? And that you couldn't drink your way out of it? How did you get to that point?

Matthew Marin 
I had a couple of incidents that kind of woke me up. But the main one that woke me up was after one of my shootings. I ended up killing a suspect. And I say, stabbed victim. And then I wasn't able to save an older man who tried to intervene between the man and the woman. And the guy turned around and started stabbing the old man and I actually shot and killed him while he was stabbing the old man. And the old man died in my arms, you know, asking for help. After I shot him, I went up to him kicked the knife away from the suspect went to the old man and the older man, and pretty much tried to set him up a little bit and try to see where his wounds were and it was all in the stomach. So every time he was breathing, you know, you just kind of see his guts coming out. So, after that scene, I was at home by myself, I was single at the time, and I was in an apartment. And I started drinking, you know, and the next thing I remember is I woke up with my gun in one hand and my glass of whiskey in the other, and I had no idea how I got my gun. That threw me in a span, and yeah, it made me start researching what I had.

Steve Martorano 
What's the procedure after a police shooting like? That you go to work the next day? What's the procedure?

Matthew Marin 
No, sir. So um, so after a police shooting, we usually get three days off automatically. And that's to go get seen by the therapist and get evaluated. And if they think that you're not ready to go back on the street, yet, they'll hold you back for a longer period of time before they throw you back on the street. But most of the time, you know, officers want to get back on the street. As for me personally, if I didn't go back on the street. I was going to be thinking about this stuff all the time. You know, it was gonna be flooded my mind the whole time I'm at home not doing anything.

Steve Martorano 
It's...it's kind of a...it's kind of a rock and a hard place...

Matthew Marin 
It is.

Steve Martorano 
...for people In this business, because on the one hand, you're hurt, you need to process what happened here. But on the other hand, you say, it's a way to just, you know, get it out of my mind. But there's also this stigma attached to...

Matthew Marin 
Oh, yeah.

Steve Martorano 
...man up, right?

Matthew Marin 
Yeah. So back when I did it, um PTSD wasn't a thing back then. You know, it wasn't thought of like it is now. Now, you know, your chain of command is aware of it now. It's actually getting more and more accepted. But there's still a big stigma like officers are very scared to come out and speak up, that they have PTSD because it puts a target on their back, you know if it's basically you're a liability.

Steve Martorano 
Yes. Is this guy steady? Can I depend upon this guy? Is he going to hold up?

Matthew Marin 
Right. Yeah. Well, well, that and...and also your chain of command. Should I let this guy on the street?

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, right...right.

Matthew Marin 
But the thing is, is that if you took everybody away, they had PTSD out in the street, you wouldn't have any good officers. Like most of your military guys that go and join police departments, they have PTSD, but they're trained, and they know how to handle firearms, and they know how to handle their stress. And now, we're addressing the PTSD aspect of it to where they're managing their skills. You know, so, I mean, I don't see any issue with us being on the street.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, we have come a long way in desynchronizing a lot of mental health issues. And this one is, you know, this one's particularly important because if you stigmatize mental disorder, in the military rank and file or first responder, you're going to get bad outcomes for everybody. You're going to get all kinds of people hurt if the folks aren't getting the treatment they need. So, this essentially is the subject matter of the book, you wrote Silent Screams, right.

Matthew Marin 
Yes, sir.

Steve Martorano 
These are stories that you've witnessed and experienced, and what you've learned about treating trauma?

Matthew Marin 
Yes, sir. So it's all stories that I experienced. I don't tell anybody else's stories, but my own and it's all firsthand.

Steve Martorano 
By the way, for those of you look...look around you know, it's on Amazon, any place you can buy a book, you can find it. Silent Screams. let me ask you, now you because you have, obviously, firsthand experience, but you've worked with lots of people now who suffer from trauma and post-traumatic stress. What are some of the types of mental problems that result from post-traumatic stress?

Matthew Marin 
Well, I mean, there's...there's anxiety, paranoia. We have a lot of officers that, you know, any loud noise, we're, you know, looking around. Everybody's different. It doesn't hit anybody the same. One person might get PTSD symptoms right after the incident, and another person might not, and get it three or four months down the road. It'll blindside them, you know. So it depends on the person. Actually, yeah.

Steve Martorano 
There are lots of behaviors, negative behaviors, I'm sure that are associated with trauma, that at first glance, don't look like they have anything at all to do with this...

Matthew Marin 
Oh, yeah. One of them is a lack of empathy. I know that for sure. I mean, that along with a hot temper, and a short fuse, that'll wreck marriages, it'll wreck families and close relationships. And that's what happened to me. So yeah...

Steve Martorano 
It also results in not only bad policing but sometimes deadly policing. It's always occurred to me that whenever the latest, you know, police shooting, causes justifiable outrage, that what we're looking at, in addition to, you know, whatever you may think of it is really, not great training, and people on the street that need help, you know, because they're going to be a danger sooner or later. Does that explain some of what we've seen recently?

Matthew Marin 
Um, I don't know if I would say that PTSD caused them, to fire their weapon or to act aggressively. But I will say lack of training. Definitely. Like I speak for the HPD -- Houston Police Department. We have tons and tons of training because we're a huge police department. And you rarely see that, anything like that with us because of the amount of training we do. And it becomes second nature when we're actually in the field and going into a domestic violence call or a shooting in progress or whatever like it's second nature to how we react to these situations. Whereas you get smaller police departments that don't have any funding or anything to get the better training. And yeah, you've been you'll have some mishaps there.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. With regard to the military, you explained pretty clearly how it works for the police in your experience with regard to trauma. Does the military do enough to take care of service people who are traumatized and have post-traumatic stress?

Matthew Marin 
No. No, not at all. And then also, whenever they get out of the VA is is like an assembly line. It's very hard. For me, I know personally, when I got out, I tried to go to the VA, and it literally took me three months to get an appointment to get seen. And then on top of that, when I did get seen, I had to fill out tons and tons of paperwork. I basically stayed in it for, almost an hour doing paperwork. And then when I finally got seen, like, it was kind of felt rushed, you know, and "all right, next" type thing. And I just, it rubbed me the wrong way. And that's why...that's a big reason why I saw what this foundation is doing. And it's given everybody a personalized experience to where we proactively seek them out and provide the peer support that they need, forever. Right. So, if we know this guy, you know John, had a shooting two years ago, and I haven't heard from him in three months, I'm gonna proactively check in on him and see where his mindsets are at. Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. Anybody listening to this or watching you who is struggling or have, you know, has problems? How does it work? Do they contact Birdwell, and you guys do...

Matthew Marin 
A lot of different ways, sir. So we do have a 24/7 hotline. And that's nationwide on it's on BirdwellFoundation.org. And then also, we get a ton of referrals by the guys that are on that foundation, their friends who are psychologists, or therapists or they work in mental health, we get a ton of referrals that way. And also, we reach out to police departments, fire departments, etc. And we get referrals from them as well. Because there's a lot of police departments that don't have their own personal Peer Support Unit. And a matter of fact, the Houston Police Department, they literally as big as they are, they just got their peer support unit established a few years ago. They're actually doing really great work. And so the way we would come up come to them is that, hey, if an officer comes to you, and they don't really trust opening up to you, which a lot of officers don't, because they're attached to the police department, but even though that they have confidence that they have to abide by, and they take that really seriously, and I really commend them for doing that. So far, so good, you know, and, but there are some officers that have that doubt in their head, and they don't want to risk their career. So, you know, come to the Birdwell Foundation, and we'll take care of them like that.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah.

Matthew Marin 
You know, and also we're partnered with rehab facilities as well, to where if, let's say, people are drinking too much, you know, we can get the detox, and then get them in some into some therapy as well.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, well, I know that that's the relationship that exists between Birdwell Foundation, our partners Retreat Behavioral Health. There's a lot of referrals going that way and I know Retreat does a lot of work with veterans. So okay, so this program will post like the week before Veterans Day, she's November the 11th. We...we know what to expect. There'll be speeches by politicians, and there'll be bunting and some parades and, and a lot of "thank you for your service." Now, I understand the motive behind that phrase, "thank you for your service," but it's not enough is it.

Matthew Marin 
You know, to be honest, I knew what I signed up for. When I...when I went. My dad was in the Marine Corps. My grandpa was in the army. It was airborne and it's just like, I knew what I signed up for. So I'm not looking for a thank you. I'm not looking for anything. I just...I just want... I just want the government to understand that you know, we went out there for...for y'all, and for our families. And when...when we come back, we would like a little support. We would like a little help. Because it's just like, you know, workmans' comp. Like, we got injured on duty. You know, we need help, you know, so...

Steve Martorano 
They're not understanding it fast enough that's for sure. By the way, before you go, did you ever see a movie or a television show that you thought accurately depicted what goes on in a police department? 

Matthew Marin 
In a police department? 

Steve Martorano 
You know, Law and Order. Did you ever seen one where you went...

Matthew Marin 
Law and Order don't depict it. Oh, yeah, actually, um, so there's a movie called End of Watch, and that one's pretty accurate.

Steve Martorano 
Oh, I think I know that one. I think I saw that one. Yeah. Yeah. I often wonder what, like lawyers from looking at lawyers shows. Thinking what Yeah, sir. Certainly, there's a lot of cop shows. Anyway, yours is not a show. It's the real deal. Matthew Marin's book is called Silent Screams.

Matthew Marin 
Yes, sir.

Steve Martorano 
So wherever you buy your books, Amazon is where I found it. So you can find it there as well. He is the National Director of the Birdwell Foundation for post-traumatic stress. We will have links to that site and to their 24/7 phone number if you're in crisis and need some help. Hey, Matthew, thanks for your service.

Matthew Marin 
I appreciate you, sir. And I appreciate you having me on and anybody who's listening that's in the Texas area on March 26 of next year. We're having the Hometown Heroes event and actually, y'all (Retreat Behavioral Health) are a big sponsor for that event. And, and what that is, is we are celebrating our heroes in uniforms, our military, and our first responders. And we're going to be raising money for therapy, for military first responders, and also a local hero that's in need. We're gonna have car shows, we're gonna have a live concert by Soldier Hard, who is a war veteran, and he seems hip hop. He sings about recovery and PTSD. And we're gonna have lots of raffles there and come out and support...support your heroes.

Steve Martorano 
Well, you know what, you'll be on with us sometime before that so we can remind them.

Matthew Marin 
Oh, for sure. 

Steve Martorano 
Matthew Marin, thanks so much for joining us on the Behavioral Corner. Thank you guys as well. Don't forget to follow us on Facebook. Like us there as well. We like to be liked. Who doesn't like to be liked? And we will catch you next time hanging on the Corner.

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