The Behavioral Corner 

Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while.

Steve Martorano 

Welcome again to Behavioral Corner. It's me, hangin', Steve Martorano, on the Corner, as I often do here, waiting for somebody interesting to come by. And I'm so lucky, I pick this Corner because I just bump into the greatest people. Even the guy who runs the bodega around the corner is just the best. So it's the Behavioral Corner, we talk about -- well we talk about behavioral health. So I tell people, this is a podcast about everything. Because that's what behavioral health is, it's the decisions we make, how that affects us emotionally and physically, even spiritually. So we range far and wide here on the Behavioral Corner, and it's all made possible by our great partners, our underwriters, Retreat Behavioral Health, you'll hear about them a little bit later. So you know, you want to talk to people in a situation like this, that really knows what they're talking about that mean, obviously, you don't have the wrong people talking about something they know nothing about. So we get experts, we get people that really know what they're talking about. And that is often you know, people with academic degrees and backgrounds in science or history or whatever. We're gonna talk about kids today. Okay, I want to talk about kids today. There's certainly a lot of professionals in the field of child psychology and child guidance. But you know, I want to get a real professional to talk about kids -- and that's a father or a parent, I should say. A Dad. And I could do no better than this guest because I've been trying to get this guy for a while. Ryan Hayes joins us on the Behavioral Corner. He is with our underwriting partners Retreat, Behavioral Health. But again, if he joins us, as the dad of four, count on four young guys, whose exploits I've been following through Facebook, for the past year or so. And I'm delighted by them. Brian's here to help us understand his relationship with his sons and their relationship with competition. Look, it's never been easy to be a parent. I guess, you know, 300 years ago, when children were born, it was obviously a different deal. The idea of parenting was to get them strong enough so they go out and work in the fields. I mean, that was pretty much it. That was the end of rearing, can he get behind a plow? Can she turn butter, you know?

Brian Hayes 

Yeah, things just change a little bit.

Steve Martorano 

Changed a little bit. So I don't want to sit here and say this is the hardest time ever to raise children. But I would be remiss if I didn't point out the obvious that this is a unique time to be both a parent and a kid. There are situations and factors impacting both parents and their children currently going on that are extraordinary. They result in all kinds of sometimes benefits. But very often they can result in fear and danger. I mean, the pandemic is only the most obvious example of what this generation of young children and their parents have had to deal with. So we understand this is a unique time in history and a unique moment. And we're going to take a look at it in general, but in particular, kids and competition, and Brian know a lot about competition. Let's begin a little bit with your background. Where were you born and raised?

Brian Hayes 

So I was born in San Diego, West Coast, California, and I was a military brat. My father was in the Navy and every two to three years we were packing up and moving to a brand new location. I was born in Southern California. My brother was born in Biloxi, Mississippi, and my sister was born in Long Island, New York. We're all three years apart. So we did a lot of moving around. Where am I from? Right now? Florida, I guess you could say I originally started my journey born in San Diego. 

Steve Martorano 

And how old are you? 

Brian Hayes 

Thirty-nine. Had to think about that for a second.

Steve Martorano 

Thirty-nine. Look what's looming? 

Brian Hayes 

Yeah, yeah

Steve Martorano 

The big four-oh. Trust me when I tell you as the guy who's 150 years old. Forget about 40 It's meaningless. Blow right past 40.

Brian Hayes 

Meaningless. Yeah, you know, I try not to look at 40. If I'm at an age now with if I sneeze the wrong way, I could be out of commission for a couple of days because things start to hurt. Do you know what I mean? It's, it's interesting.

Steve Martorano 

You're the "shank of the evening," as we said, Well, tell me about the boys. As I said, four sons. What are their ages and names?

Brian Hayes 

So, four sons. My oldest son, his name is Collin and he's eleven years old. My second son is Declan. He is nine. My third son is Casey. He's seven and my youngest son is Dempsey, and he is five.

Steve Martorano 

Wow. Wow. So every couple of years.

Brian Hayes 

Every couple of years.

Steve Martorano 

Every a couple of years. You were also I know a little bit about your background. You were also a...an elite athlete during your high school and college career, correct?

Brian Hayes 

Correct. Yeah, I, my main sport growing up, I bounced around and did a lot of different sports. But it finally stuck on I found the sport of wrestling and I and wore that hat as a wrestler throughout my college career. And then many years after that, I stayed in coaching and even got to the point where I had my son's wrestling. So yeah, I've learned a lot about myself through competition. And now with four boys all at different ages, at different developmental stages of the competition, I'm learning even more now.

Steve Martorano 

But so before we get into them, and your relationship with them, and competition, when did you recognize you enjoy competing? Because obviously, you did? And do you think you were born with that desire to compete or was that instilled in you by your, maybe your father or your mother?

Brian Hayes 

It was instilled for sure. Um, through that exposure, I realized that I enjoy competition when I was winning, there was that positive reinforcement. I think it really started in Pop Warner Football, believe it or not, a, you know, now I'm five-seven on a good day. I kind of sitting around 200 pounds. But at the time, you know, a Filipino kid running around being one of the biggest guys on the football field wasn't something that was really heard of, you know, so I started to experience the success there. And I enjoyed that. It became part of my identity -- part of the expectations to have of competing,

Steve Martorano 

By the way, we're talking about competition. We'll talk about it primarily in a physical context, because Brian, as he just said, was a wrestler, that's certainly a physical sport, and his boys are in very physical activity. If you haven't seen any BMX competition, it's breathtaking. And these are not, you know, big guys, these are young kids. But competition is competition. I've seen this in my children and my grandchildren now. And that when they see they're good at something. Nothing motivates a kid more than, wow, I'm good. I can do this, right? How did you find in your children, that they would respond to something like that? How would you introduce them to the idea of competition?

Brian Hayes 

So, part of that comes from my upbringing, my exposure, and kind of the things that I hold near and dear to my heart, and what I hoped my sons could take, as well. And my wife also being a competitive person, we got our children involved in physical activities very, very early on. My first son, he was doing swim lessons at six months, actually think about it for that. So everything was really about exposure. And myself being an active individual, my wife being an active individual, we wanted to do anything and everything that we could do outdoors, getting the body moving, because we recognize the benefits of that. And working at Retreat Behavioral Health, as for a long time, recreational therapist, you know, I see the benefits of that. You just can't deny the benefits of being physical. So we started them all at a very, very young age. As soon as they could kind of really get moving, whatever was appropriate for that stage of physical development. We went for i. We nurtured that, you know -- from throwing from running from being on a scooter or a balanced bike, and then just, you know, kind of rolling with the punches, if you will. Right out the gate, we were looking to, to get them physically active.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, your active lifestyle people and you like that lifestyle, naturally, you would bring your children along with that. And then they take to it right, they love it, they take to it when you begin to go, I'll bet you they'd like to engage in competition because it's different. Need to go hiking with your parents or canoeing with your parents and then saying, okay, here's literally baseball, there's all this, when did you make that decision?

Brian Hayes 

So again, we made that early on. So when you talk about the physical...the physicality of doing something outdoors, like kayaking is very different than the exposure to sports. So we came into being parents with the idea, my wife, you know, competing for collegiate sports myself. So as we were kind of looking for ways to keep them active sports were always right there at the forefront of our minds. So it wasn't so much that we reflected and thought about how when would they be interested in competing it was really more just kind of throwing them into it, if you will because that's what we knew. Right? So I talked about my competitive nature being instilled in me through exposure. So as soon as we could get them into sports, it was karate and then you know it was wrestling. The earliest you can wrestle was five years old. So as soon as my oldest hit five, we got him on the wrestling mat, and because of that sport, you don't just go wrestle it to practice, like, you know, you sign up as a five-year-old, you are wrestling in a tournament with tons of other kids on the weekend.

Steve Martorano 

At five years of age? 

Brian Hayes 

Five years of age. Yeah. My youngest son, we snuck on the wrestling...my younger two, we snuck on the rest of that right around three. My oldest two before they could even walk, I had them crawling around on the wrestling mat. A lot of people didn't think it was the best choice because those mats are kind of grimy, but I wanted -- I wanted that exposure. So they were around very early on.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah. Well, I mean, I know how they took to it. But what were you looking for there? I know, it didn't happen...or did it happen? Did one of them or two of them go? This isn't for me. Does that happen?

Brian Hayes 

It did, and I'm gonna be honest with you, Steve. BMX is a beautiful, beautiful sport. It's an amazing community. Our family has truly grown to love it. But at first, I was devastated. My garage down here in Florida, you know, the ages of my sons. But I had wrestling that we had weights, we had resistance bands, we had a treadmill, we had all of that stuff. And you know, I would work with the boys -- lace-up, they'd have their headgear on and they'd be wrestling. And then we happen to find this a six-week program that was very, very inexpensive and was reasonable for all four of my kids. And I was like, we'll never find anything like that. Just send them to go. And then they fell in love with the sport of BMX. And then they didn't want to wrestle anymore. And up until that point, that's all that this family knew, you know, so...

Steve Martorano 

Right. 

Brian Hayes 

I remember being in the garage, cutting up my resume, like, crying. I was in tears and like, damn, none of my guys want to wrestle. What's going on here? So there's been a lot of self-discovery and, kind of figuring things out for...for all of us really.

Steve Martorano 

Well, is one of the great things to talk about here. Because, you know, a lot of parents face that. They have an idea in their head of what their kid can do or should do. And then one day, they find out that they're not as interested in that as mom and dad. So what's harder in a situation like that for a parent, managing their expectations or managing your expectations?

Brian Hayes 

Oh, man. So being that I have, you know, the four boys and we started them out really, really young. The expectations that I had, I'm gonna start speaking about my own personal expectations. No, I wanted them to have that exposure. And I wanted for them to...to begin to develop as individuals because I there's something about sports, you know, that life experiences that you can really only gain in the arena of competition. Yeah, I just lost my train of thought, and I kind...

Steve Martorano 

You obviously pivoted, you were able to go, okay, I started out thinking they would be wrestling prodigies, but that's not really what I wanted. I wanted them to understand what competition's benefits were.

Brian Hayes 

Yeah. So if I look at recall the stuff I look back at the concept of expectations in competition. So the way that I started off, and I'm gonna stick with BMX, from here on out.

Steve Martorano 

Okay. yep.

Brian Hayes 

Because again, it's not an expensive sport. So my wife and I, invested a lot of money for our children to be able to compete on this platform. And the expectations that I started them all out with was if we're going to commit to this financially, and you know, with our time and all of our resources and energy, that I expect that you're going to give everything that you've got. 100%. And I expect that all the time. And I'm learning now that, you know, 100% is different for them on different days, and it'll appear different to me. But what happened was through the expectations of dad, and oh, it's important that we win -- t's important that we go hard -- that kind of set the baseline, and now I'm at a place where my -- I don't have to go in, if you will, on my boys and have these conversations repeatedly over and over again about the expectation of performing well and performing at your best, because they've kind of gathered that and taking that on as their own. We kind of established this foundation of excelling and success and working hard and putting in what you know, you'll get what you put in. And believe it or not, it's a beautiful thing that's already transitioning to, they now have developed their own expectations of hey, I'm I'm one of the top riders in Florida, I've got to show up and I've got to perform.

Steve Martorano 

That can be a tough one for a youngster who has to understand because -- I hear you -- you're saying to them, you're making a kind of an adult argument here. You're saying, Look, this is not inexpensive. It's tremendously time-consuming for mom and dad. And if you're going to just the futz around here, tell me now, because you've saved me a lot of time and money. Now, that can put a kid under a kind of pressure going, "Yeah, gee, they bought these bikes. You know, they're driving us at six o'clock in the morning..." How do you avoid putting -- not no pressure -- but too much pressure on a youngster?

Brian Hayes 

That's, that's...that's...that's something that I've learned through the sport of BMX. How do you avoid, you know, you really have to be able to gauge as a parent, as a father, as a mother, and really understand your children and know when to ease up and know when to apply a little bit of pressure. Because I do think the pressure is...is good for kids. I mean that, if we're being honest, that's the world that we live in, right, a competitive world, and pressure is everywhere. So I do not by any means try to shelter my children from that. I apply the pressure. But I've also been a coach, right. And I've had coaches. I was a college athlete, and then I now coached a bunch of different kids, different schools, and teams. You know, so I've developed over the years and understanding of alright, now it's time to capitalize on a little pressure push. Now it's time to ease up. And I've been able to do that and kind of provide that environment for my children and knock on wood, so far, it's actually been working out pretty well, you know. There have been two years, there have been really hard conversations to have. But as long as you're understanding where your child is at, and if I can, I actually like to go into one personal experience. My nine-year-old is one of he's one of my strongest performing riders, right. And there are three levels. So you start off as a novice, then you move to intermediate, and then you're an expert, I was told that it took years to be an expert. And it kind of happened within the first year for three of my sons. So they went 10 wins as a novice, and then they moved up to the next intermediate level, and they were getting their clocks cleaned. And my son said I don't want to race anymore. I applied a little bit of pressure. And I said, "Listen, we set out to do this. The goal was to get to expert, we're going to finish and if you don't want to raise after you're an expert, then you don't have to, but we are going to finish what we started." And that's the goal that we had, like, let's get an expert. When he got to intermediate expectations that had on him, I was still kind of pushing, pushing, pushing. And then he got to the point where he just didn't want to race and he was racing even worse. And then I realized that that pressure was too much. For him, he couldn't handle it the way that my other sons could. So I recognize that and I said, "You know what, for the next month, daddy's not going to say anything to you. I just want you to go out there and ride and try this. Just try this. Give yourself a personal goal and every week, I want you to work for it. Try to get your lap time, under 50 seconds. Under 51 seconds, whatever it was at the time. And then when the pressure was lifted, they moved into another level of competition. And there's a lot of that give and play in the development and the personal growth as an athlete -- as an individual.

Steve Martorano 

That's a deep insight because I think too many parents can't step outside their expectations. And go, Well, what's that kid thinking? So maybe I'm putting a little too much pressure. Maybe I back off. Brian Hayes is our guest. Brian is here as an expert in raising four sons between the ages of -- what is it? Five and eleven. They all compete. They all seem to love it. A couple of them compete at a very high level in bicycle motocross. And he's here to tell us what he's learned about handling that. I don't know how it is. I'm sure it's not as bad in something like BMX, I don't know. But we've all witnessed horrible scenes of parents behaving like maniacs during youth competitions. How have you avoided it -- it's called toxic levels. Are you aware that that's a slippery slope that you could slide down if you're not careful?

Brian Hayes 

Absolutely, 100%. And one of the things that I could say about the BMX sport in the community, while there are those levels of competition, what I've learned, there are certain individuals that are almost continuing to compete through their children. That's where I think that toxicity comes into play. If the focus is solely on the performance and the growth and the personal development and the enjoyment of your child, then you can really do no wrong, I think, if you're supporting that, but when you get into, you know, this is us, this is us, we've done this, no, we didn't do those kids did it, you provided the vessel, and the kids are the ones that are performing. You got to step the hell back and just let them be kids. And I think you can avoid that toxicity. Because what happens is -- I'll talk about dads, you know, dads begin to butt heads because, you know, your son did this or something like that. Why are you feeling attacked? Why are you here? Because it hits with your need for competition. The reality of the situation is you kind of go back to the children, you talk about it with them, what did they experience? How were they processing it, and then offering them a solution? If they ask, you know, like, this is a way that you could solve this problem with the other rider that doesn't need to get involved or shouldn't have to get involved, if everyone kind of in this healthy balance of competition, bu,t to your point, yeah, the toxic level of competition can be very, very dark. And the way that I've avoided that is I have my father who was kind of my coach and he was an athlete, and he still is a coach, talk to me about certain situations and I've had my wife -- no highlight, hey, you know, why are you getting...

Steve Martorano 

Lighten up. Okay.

Brian Hayes 

Yeah, you know, and I did realize. I realized that myself and like I'm pushing these kids to compete for the way that I would. And that's not what it's about

Steve Martorano 

Some of the obvious or not so obvious benefits of getting your kids involved in the competition. There's a list of benefits, obviously to them. But you know, as an adult, you can always learn something about yourself, when you're dealing with a situation like this. Before we get into some other specific things, because if you go online, as I have, in the past couple of days looking at this, and putting kids in competition, you will get two kinds of responses from Google, one will be: "Lists of benefits," and the other will be "The Dangers of competition." So there is two sides to the issue of competition. We're here to talk about managing that and making sure you're mostly on the positive side of this thing. But here's what I'm fascinated about. And I wonder what your impression of this is. A parent who's looking at a child who is maybe good at something -- perhaps even gifted at it -- has to make a choice there. And often that choice occurs at a very early age without a lot of information. There's a sense, my kid maybe a chess wizard, you've got to make a decision there about what to do. And I'm always struck by the idea of if Earl Woods, Tigers father, decided to give him a violin because maybe he could be a virtuoso violinist, or a basketball or baseball, he would have missed the great gift the kid had...

Brian Hayes 

Yeah.

Steve Martorano 

...from...from God knows where. Then Earl Woods did something that I think I want you to talk about. When it became apparent that he did have a gift, and was going to be Tiger Woods. And Tiger sort of forced the issue, said, "Okay, thank you for everything. But I got this." Snd Earl backed off. Too many parents aren't able to make that decision, or they?

Brian Hayes 

No, they aren't. And I again, I think you got to circle back to the kind of checking your ego. What is this really all about? You know, looking at the purpose of competition and kind of having that outlined before getting into it. You know, looking at the abilities and the gifts that I think all of us are given some at different levels, it really does have to kind of dial back and you have to, again, go back into that coaching situation where like, okay, I know to apply a little bit of pressure here. But at the end of the day, I'm really learning now that you kind of has to, I think the healthy or the thing to do is allow that child to come to that conclusion on their own.

Steve Martorano 

And you got to, you got to walk that line between not letting them give up on something they might truly be great at and enjoy because maybe had a weekend when they're bored, or, on the other hand pushing them in some direction they just don't want to go. And that leads me to this question of burnout. 

Brian Hayes 

Yeah.

Steve Martorano 

Now we've seen some very gifted young people hit a wall at a very early age. Do you worry about that? For your kids?

Brian Hayes 

Yeah, I am. The only reason I worry about the burnout is that I know that I'm going to miss this chapter when it's over. I've really kind of switched my perspective. And I've really gotten to the point where I enjoy the journey of the experience. And I'm not so hyper-focused on the overall performance at this stage. I personally am taking many layers of pressure and expectations away. Because burnout is a very real thing. And the sports that I competed in, you know, there were some of the phenomenal first-grade wrestlers that were state champions or whatever, national champions by the time they got to high school, they were done. Do you know? Could it have been something that got them a college scholarship? Maybe? You know, I think when you get to that stage, you know, my father coaches, a lot of cross country runners, indoor and outdoor track runners. And there have been times where people just kind of stepped away from it and like you this is money this is college, this is your education, yes, your tuition. Again, you kind of have to you have to bring it back and I know what stuff is apparent because as parents you know, we provide those resources to give our children higher levels of education. But they have to understand the consequences and they gotta let go of your own stuff and give them more freedom. And I think that freedom allows for the real true authentic development of who those people are.

Steve Martorano 

The reason it resonates so much right now is that I think you're the process you're talking about begins very at an early age, and you know how this works, you are a product of this. As youngsters rise in their level of expertise and whatever they're doing, whether it's chess or football, the herd is culled. Do you know? The better kids keep moving up, that's just the way it works. And each level they achieve, there is a bit more pressure because the competition is stiffer. Then they reach the absolute elite level you just mentioned, it's at that level that it goes quite beyond merely competing for a place on the team, or ranking as a chess player. It's about money, lots and lots of money. And what we're seeing now, tell me a comment on this, if you will, our professional athletes, who for the first time, at least in my experience, are standing up and saying, I'm getting crushed here, emotionally. I've got mental health issues. And everybody goes, come on, man, you play a game, you're making money, man up. That's the worst thing we could be doing to elite athletes and young people, isn't it?

Brian Hayes 

I would agree. Do you know? I think there go those expectations again, right? And not the respect for an individual to kind of make the choices that they want to make. It becomes very hard. Do you know? Um, as an athlete, you know, you have a team that relies on you. You have coaches that have these expectations, and you have family members that have these expectations. And I really do believe that it's a beautiful thing. And the world of sports is evolving. Because there's more discussion about mental health. And there's more discussion about all the other elements of competition besides just med check, whatever it might be. It's moving in the right direction. And I think I think it's a beautiful thing to kind of see athletes stand up for their own internal voice, mental, emotional, and physical well-being. 

Steve Martorano 

Well, Brian, I knew what we asked you to do this, you were going to be a strong advocate for the benefits of competition. And I agree with you that kids can learn a lot. Just these last two things. There's a movement -- there was -- I guess it still is that says, "You know, this is wrong. Competition is not something kids should be involved in right away. They should be involved in the activity. But everybody should get a trophy." The "everybody should get a trophy" theory for involvement, rather than expertise. Let me guess you're not an "Everybody gets a trophy kind of guy." Right?

Brian Hayes 

Well, I can paint the picture like this. I've got my five-year-old, that race is BMX. And he started riding at three and a half. And he moved up to intermediate, he got his first 10 wins. And then he came to me and he said, "Daddy, Daddy, I got third place. Can I get a trophy?" And I said, "Son, we get trophies for first place." So, I think that is the question. I don't believe in participation trophies. There...it...it levels the playing field in a way that's just not realistic. Do you know? It's not the real world. If everyone got a participation trophy, then, I mean, we were creating this, this generation of people that kind of had this level of entitlement, and I think that can go down a road of causing and creating more toxicity in your life and more challenges, as opposed to getting that kind of hard lessons early on, and acceptance and redirection, you know, and figuring out what is your route, your path? What are they? Participation trophies? I'm not the biggest fan.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I think sometimes that they were an effort of the parents not make sure they didn't feel bad if they had little league season. If everybody got a trophy, then you could bring one home as well. Finally, just this point, too many people, I think, believe there is a conflict between competition and cooperation. Because it seems like while you're always banging heads and trying to defeat an adversary. Well, you wrestled in an individual sport, but there was a team involved in this. They are not mutually exclusive. You can be competitive, and learn about that, as well as how to cooperate in the context that we're talking about. Do you believe that?

Brian Hayes 

I 100% believe that. The collaboration component I think is a major, major advantage in the world of competition, right? So I've always sought out individual sports for my son's because I valued the sport of wrestling and how the spotlight was on you. And I think that was an important thing. There were no people to blame, you know, what you put in is what you got. And I think that's an important life lesson that you can gather through athletics and competition. However, the collaboration component and cooperation, as you said, you can still yo -- like you mentioned -- you can still compete on your own. But then there's a collaboration of coaching, of being able to take the direction of being able to take advice and, you know, looking at other athletes and reaching outbuilding that relationship, you know, I see my boys, they ride, you know, I've got my oldest is 11 year old and I've got my older two that are chasing the 16-year-old Colombian riders that are unbelievably lightning fast. You know, so they've made those connections and one of my sons is learning Spanish because a rider, you know, has that language barrier. But that collaboration is so important. I think you can find it through individualized sports because you still need to develop. Right?

Steve Martorano 

So many false choices here. And this, and too many people, I think are taking the easy way out, I think the competition. You know, as you said at the beginning if you know your kid, you're going to know what level they're at, you know they're at and where they want to go. And you can enjoy it with them as well. Brian Hayes and his four sons, incidentally going to hear about these kids. I'm telling you, I've been trying to sign them up for my personal management contract. I can't get any traction. They're great. Look, I haven't met him yet. They look like great kids. I'm sure they are. Brian Hayes, from a Retreat Behavioral Health. Thank you, Brian. Thank you all. Don't forget to follow us in all those places where you can follow us. Like us on Facebook. We appreciate that. And you can also drop us a line to let us know what you think of the Behavioral Corner. Peace out.

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