The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while

Steve Martorano 
Hey, everybody, welcome again to the behavioral corner. I'm Steve Martorano. I hang here on the Corner, and I wait for interesting people to come by and then we hang. We hang on the Corner, and we talk about stuff we hope you'll find interesting and informative. What we deal with are behavioral health issues. That's the biggest topic I could think of because it involves -- well, this is a podcast about everything -- the decisions we make, the choices that we arrive at, and how it impacts our physical, emotional, and psychological well-being. That's the Behavioral Corner, it's underwritten by our partners Retreat Behavioral Health, and you're invited to hang with us on the Corner. I begin by pointing out something that I've often said on the show, and that is that if you have not been impacted personally in your life, or known someone close to you, who have had a substance abuse disorder, or going through treatment, and then recovery, then your impressions of that whole environment, that whole world is probably formed by the media. In fact, I'm certain it is, and most powerfully by Hollywood. We have an impression of what treatment is like what addiction is like, through mass media. And sometimes it's very accurate dead on very often, it contributes to the myths, misconceptions, and for many, many years, the silences that surrounded substance abuse disorder. So we thought we'd cut through all that Hollywood stuff, and get to somebody who works theatrically but in the nonfiction or read it, he's a documentary filmmaker -- documentary filmmakers are among my favorite people. When they do it, right there is just a great service to us. Greg Williams is our guest on the Behavioral Corner. Greg is an award-winning filmmaker, as I said, in documentary filmmaking, he's done three very prominent, feature-length documentaries about this, these topics, as well as produced a couple of very landmark concerts that bring attention to this most notably, I guess, was the concert to face addiction, which took place in Washington. 2000...was it 2015, Greg? 

Greg Williams 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
Which brought together an absolute, you know, A-list group of people from all walks of life, certainly musicians and Hollywood types like that, that really, you know, brought this to the fore. So we welcome Greg Williams to the program so we can find out, you know, the skinny about this stuff -- and not the way Sandra Bullock has been trying to tell us it is. Greg, thanks for joining us on the Corner. You know, I have an idea and I bounce this off you before we get to your stuff. I'm thinking about putting together a film critique segment on the Corner here, where I get people who've been through substance abuse and recovery. And we pick a movie a month that deals with subjects. And then I get them to say, "Okay, you're a film critic, but we're going to criticize this from the standpoint of, is this a good movie? Or is this a bad movie about the topic?" What's your impression about what general has been pumped out through Hollywood and movies and television about the issue of substance abuse disorder? Is it been a net positive or a net negative?

Greg Williams 
It's a big question. Thanks for having me, Steve. You know, I...I think it depends on what you're looking at. But by and large, I, you know, I have made the films and I've gotten involved in storytelling in this space because I've felt the need and a gap from the kinds of stories that are out there. And, you know, growing up, you know, if you looked at the word addiction, ore was told me about the word addiction, you know, in my teenage years, I had one view of it. Right? And that was the same old kind of addiction story that the, you know, we see over and over and over and interventions or the reality shows or even in the scripted, you know, features. You know, that said, I do think we're starting to see a new iteration, just in the recent years, with some...some different kinds of approaches, different kinds of storytelling around this topic -- no shortage of media on this issue, because, it does impact everybody -- and we've seen a ton. But, you know, in recent years, I can point to some examples of movies that I think have tackled the issue from a deeper perspective kind of getting under the surface have not just, you know, the character or the individual chose to be like that or wants to be like that, but getting to some underlying, you know, causes and conditions and to some hope. I mean, the two that jumped out to me if you do the critique, you know, one film I think that hasn't got enough praise is a film called Honey Boy. Shia LaBeouf did a really nice job on his own journey and there's a lot in there about childhood trauma and his father and all of that. 

Steve Martorano 
Yep.

Greg Williams 
It's, it's really done well. And, and then the other ones, you know, that I point to often is Chuck Lorre and his show Mom, you know. did a really nice job as a sitcom. You know, with a mom who's in recovery, and a daughter, who's in recovery, and they kind of...Kristen Johnston, actually, who was in the Anonymous People joined the cast, and in the later seasons of that show, but they had seven or eight years as a running sitcom on CBS, and it was showing the recovery story. So those kinds of recent examples, I think, do a nice job of getting to a lot more of the nuance of the issues, and so many of the examples out there.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, there's been a sea change. I mean, there certainly has. So we're a long way from every depiction of a substance abuser, being a person of color, you know, staggering around or creating crimes to something much, much bigger. So thanks for the two tips are both great. Let's, let's begin with Anonymous People talk about a myth exploder. This was the story of the...I think the -- I don't want to use a dirty little secret, but the little secret, big secret, actually -- that surrounded the issue of substance abuse, that millions of people who get to help get better. I know, when I first heard about it and saw it. And we were doing this for a while, I thought, "Wow, that's a story. It's got to be told way more often" because, you know, it had always looked so hopeless. What were the origins of Anonymous People in your mind as a filmmaker? How did that come about?

Greg Williams 
You know, I didn't know I was going to make documentary films. I went to media... as I got into recovery at 17. And I went to school for media production. And I landed a documentary film class and...and I fell in love with the genre. And, you know, the message of good documentaries is about access and, and your ability to access stories that people haven't heard, or been able to see before. And because of my own lived experience, I was able to kind of have this viewpoint in this point of view, that there were other elements that story not yet told. And I met some people after five...probably four or five years in my recovery, who were really sensational individuals working on policy and advocacy. And, and they taught me about how to, you know, civically engage using my story, but not necessarily, you know, breaking any traditions of the 12-Step community and...and that has always been kind of the thing that...that helped instill holds this side of the story back. You have content creators, you have policymakers, you have all these people in all different walks of life, who don't think they can talk about their lives...

Steve Martorano 
Yeah...yeah.

Greg Williams 
...you know, with recovery, because they're taught to be anonymous. And unfortunately, not, you know, the case, and in my viewpoint, and based on, you know, that film, that's kind of the issue that we unpack -- is not only the who's telling their story publicly, but also the why people are telling their story publicly, and then how they're doing it in a way that doesn't violate any traditions or any game of telephone that's been told to people for generations around what they can and cannot do if they belong to an anonymous program. 

Steve Martorano 
Well, prior to your documentary, Alcoholics Anonymous was probably foremost in people's minds - if they didn't know how it worked, they certainly knew about it. And it's in the name of "alcohol anonymous", and it was a very strong tradition for decades. And it's broken down now. Most people I know who are in AA are forthright and ready to talk to you about it. They don't talk about you know, the process or anything like that. They talk about being a member of that. I think your documentary went a long way towards breaking down the resistance to that. (You have) a great title. (A) great story. And it needed to be told. I think the figure that you used in the film was 20 million people at that point we're in long-term recovery. Is that right?

Greg Williams 
Yeah, there's been a couple of surveys since but 23 and a half million is typically the number that we say that, you know, 1 in 10 Americans once had a problem with alcohol or other drugs and no longer does. That might not match your definition of recovery. But this is a big issue and it impacts a lot of people. So boiling it down that one single definition of recovery or your definition of recovery you met you know...

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, it goes beyond...it goes beyond that. It goes beyond what you did. You presented an opportunity for people to talk about it. From policymakers to people who've been through it, listing some of the shame burdens. Some, as I said, myths and misconceptions about this. I think it was a brilliant document.

Greg Williams 
And I do want to say like, a lot of what we do in the film was just kind of interview folks about their own history, about the recovery movement. And we go back to Martin Mann. And we go back to Bill Wilson. And we go back to some of the founders of the 12-Step movement who reconciled with this issue for years -- before the traditions are even written. And then look at...look at how they behaved, right in the 30s 40s 50s. Like, what happened was, you know, anonymity got commingled with some being synonymous to secrecy, through the game of telephone over the years. And that's not what it ever was intended for. And that's not what it was, or should be, in the view of the folks in the film and in my view. You know, so people just have to understand that...that anonymity means something different than secrecy. We don't argue that anonymity should...should go by the wayside, or that 12-Step programs, you know, don't need to necessarily be anonymous for what they do in the community. But individuals who participate in those programs don't need to be secret about their recovery. 

Steve Martorano 
Absolutely. 

Greg Williams 
There's...there's a pretty bright line of distinction there.

Steve Martorano 
Again, it sort of demolishes the notion that there's an equivalency between anonymity and something we don't talk about because it's shameful or difficult. So...so to that end, it's been...it was a great, great positive. So tell me about Generation Found, because I am not familiar with Generation Found.

Greg Williams 
That was a film directed by Jeff Riley, who's...who has been my partner and co-producing partner on...on all these feature projects. He's an incredibly talented, feature storyteller. And so while I often get a lot of credit for these projects, Jeff probably deserves more than than I do -- in terms of their artistry of them. It was about a recovery High School and, and a community down in Houston, Texas, that developed a continuum of care for young people, and how engaged the community was in connecting young people, not just in treatment, or engaging them in treatment, but in a school-based environment and how to support them long term. And so it really looked at adolescence and the onset of...of addiction and...and the onset of recovery. And so we have unique access to these really sensational schools that are popping up around the country. And we're able to tell a real human interest story of the educators and the students themselves. But it's...it's a, it's been a great film. And when we launched the film, there was something like, you know, 30, some odd of these schools in the country. And now there's over 60, and more in development. So we're really excited about individual willingness to watch the film and use the film and people's communities to start more programs for young people.

Steve Martorano 
The beauty of it is, of course, it highlights this notion of treatment, as a process, not a single thing, or 28-days someplace, but an ongoing process that -- to coin a phrase -- takes a village to accomplish. Is there a name of the program or discipline they're employing?

Greg Williams 
Yeah, so I mean, people could go to like recoveryschools.org. Each school is in a local community governed by, you know, the local education board. But there is an association of recovery schools, so people could Google that "association of recovery schools" and see where the schools are, and, and where they operate. And they also partner a lot with the Association of Recovery in Higher Education, which brings together all the collegiate recovery programs across the country. We're really starting to see the revolution of those youth...youth-focused programs and I will say it's...it's...it's an interesting tie to Anonymous People because what happened in Anonymous People is we touch on this stuff for five to seven minutes in an 84-minute film or whatever and after people want...they've all wanted to talk about anonymity at first, After we talk about anonymity they all jumped to like these recovery schools like, "What are these things?" And it really drove Jeff and I to want to dive deeper into that story. And the city...and the community of Houston invited us in and...and so it's been kind of this organic journey of, you know, one film to the next one.

Steve Martorano 
But certainly a long way from the DARE program. Which was probably the most notable in school, anti-drug, anti-substance abuse program. We're moving well past that. There's really been a...because of the explosion of the problem with opioid abuse, there's been an explosion in information. And we're grateful to have someone like...like you here to give us good information about it. Greg Williams is our guest, as I said, award-winning filmmaker. We're going through a couple of his films, the third of which in most recent now, is something called Tipping the Pain Scale, which we're going to talk about a little bit in terms of what you guys are showing this around the country. And you're going to be showing it in our area -- where the Corner is produced -- in February, we'll find out about that ahead. Tell us about tipping the pain scale.

Greg Williams 
Well, thank you. It's...yeah, we're excited to bring it to Allentown coming up on February 3. And it's a feature film -- a character-driven feature film. It just got finished in 2021 and now we're going to be bringing it around the country. It features some high-profile folks and also features some folks working on the grassroots -- working on in unconventional ways, or different kinds of ways to address this issue. So we have the former mayor of Boston, Marty Walsh, who is now the United States Secretary of Labor. We have NFL Pro Bowl, tight end, Darren Waller, you know, in the film kind of telling his story on a different platform. The community outreach individual in Philadelphia, Rob Ricardo, doing street outreach. We...we've got Joseph Green, who's a spoken word artist and educator who works with young people in the antithesis of the DARE program for individuals who aren't not yet struggling with addiction. And...and then, yeah, so it's one thing to say, you know, in the DARE program doesn't work. It's another thing to point to what works or what could be instead of that, and I think Joseph really speaks to that in this film, without, you know, saying that explicitly, but demonstrating to people what a different approach with young people could look like, around making healthy choices. And then...

Steve Martorano 
You know, what's astonishing about that? We are light years away from "Just Say No." And "Just Say No" -- it's not something from the Middle Ages. It was thought to be a perfectly obvious, appropriate, and I guess, beneficial way of telling kids what to do. Just Say No. Wow. To where we are now and there is an amazing...it's amazing to this.

Greg Williams 
And I hope my eight-year-old son doesn't get taught that, but I don't pull out a ton of hope. Like, it's, we still got a long way to go. I mean, there's a...

Steve Martorano 
Do you know what I mean? That was...

Greg Williams 
I know, I know. It's...

Steve Martorano 
Just Say No. 

Greg Williams 
Yeah, no. I said, I mean, people want...like, that's...I mean, that's what Tipping the Pain Scale is about, right? As people want, you know, that easy solution, "oh, we're gonna stop prescribing opioids." Or we're gonna make all drugs legal, or we're gonna, you know, do the end, and that's gonna fit or we're gonna sue pharma. Like, you don't take the addiction issue in America, boil it down to one policy, one practice, and fix it. Like, look at the COVID pandemic. If we had a simple solution, we would...we would introduce it and it wouldn't be complicated. And I think that's where people have to start, you know, diabetes, heart disease, like these are complicated, interconnected issues of chronic illness that relate to our environment, our community, our sociology, our socioeconomic background, the poisoned drug supply that we have. Like all of these things, and we need to be able to have a nuanced conversation. And that's why Jeff and I love documentary films where we can...we can have that nuanced conversation over the course of 80-minutes with people or longer and it's a little bit longer, but be able to unpack some of that nuance.

Steve Martorano 
Nuance is the key here. I mean, you know, the funny thing about the difference between a theatrical film and a documentary film, is that you know, you have to fit fiction into a tiny little box, and sort of make it make sense. And there's got to be a good guy and a bad guy and a conflict and then a resolution. And it seems so simple. And as you just described the problem that is anything but simple. You know, I was struck, watching the trailer to Tipping the Pain Scale with something one of your people said, I want you to comment on this. Her quote was "the physical pain crisis led to the opioid crisis." She said, "that's the general consensus when it was the emotional pain crisis that led to the opioid crisis." In that way -- what did she mean by -- I think I know what she meant -- but this shows the size of the problem right? 

Greg Williams 
Well, It shows...that...that's the...that's the...that's kind of the goal of the title of the film and our artwork. And, and Dr. Harrison, who was quoted there, is really getting to the core of, of what we're tackling in the film. It's like, you know, everyone got shown, you know, on a scale of one to 10, you know, what's your level of pain, and we're going to fix it, we're going to put a bandaid on it. You know, what doctors weren't taught or required to do was talk to people about their emotional pain. And if they had in the 90s, and the 2000s -- in addition to their physical pain -- they might have been a little less accepting to prescribe opioids because it would understand that like, well, while the opioid does work on the physical pain, there's underlying stuff here. Like that's, that's why alcohol works. That's why cocaine works. That's why marijuana works. You know, these things work for people who become addicted for a reason. And there are underlying issues and that's what the recovery journey is all about, right, is...is once we're removed from the substance of addiction, then...then we can start to dig into those issues. And then the flip side, what we cover in the film is if there's no hope if there's no compassion if there's just scorn and hatred, like what do we expect people who are living on the street? What do we expect, like...how do we if we don't care about them? How do we expect them to care about themselves? By scorning other people, we just create a bigger problem.

Steve Martorano 
We just did a show recently about the harm reduction movement, which I know goes right to the heart of what you just said, There's a reason -- I think this is correct -- that the United States is the largest drug market on the planet. And a lot of those people take these drugs for legitimate reasons. But many, many others wind up with a problem and actually have to fight the immediate problem. So you don't lose people, which we've been doing. But we've got to get round to better answer questions about what why is that what's causing all the pain and despair that would cause people to self-medicate, and then wind up with a substance abuse disorder. Your work -- you and your colleagues -- go a long way. We have a great tradition in this country and I'm...I've made documentaries for television. I know how hard they are, when they're done well, they can actually make a change. And so you guys are doing great work in that regard. (A) powerful documentary can change things. Just most recently, we saw the movie ballyhooed, Don't Look Up. Okay, a lot of Hollywood stars, a lot of hoopla. I don't know if it moves the needle much. I know a good documentary can. I've seen it over the years. Greg Williams is responsible for many of them. We've been talking about a couple, we want to alert people in our area and we'll have some information up on the site about the a screening that's going to take place in Allentown on February 3, in conjunction with Greg and his people and our underwriters Retreat Behavioral Health. We'll give you more information about that down the road. Greg, how do people, I mean, these are not the sort of films you might stumble upon in your neighborhood theater? If people want to show these youth groups or whomever, what do they have to do to find out more information?

Greg Williams 
Yeah, we'll list all our information...we're just launching community screening opportunities at tippingthepainscale.com -- tippingthepainscale.com -- and I appreciate that very much. It's...it is an independent film and this...it takes a community it takes a village to get it out there. And we've been blessed with people who are working on these issues in their communities, wanting to have discussions. So that's what we try. And that's what we make these films for is for people to bring people together, have a discussion, talk about the nuanced talk about how it relates in their community. That's the dedicated audience. Down the road later in the year, well, we'll get it on all the platforms, you know, for video on demand, and people can watch it from home and whatnot. But we want to make sure that that community organization and people have an opportunity to see it in their community and have a discussion and all of that, you know, prior to people experiencing the film, you know, by themselves.

Steve Martorano 
Uh-huh.

Greg Williams 
You know, to the point of a good documentary, you can change things-- it's...I...I totally believe that. The challenge, right, is a good documentary experienced by yourself in your home I find powerful, but less impactful and less societal shifting. Then a good documentary experience with 60, 100, 200 people in a community.

Steve Martorano 
No, yeah, sure. You light a fire under a few people and see if they can change stuff. That's the best way. Are you working on anything? Right now? Anything down the road? What you could talk about? Documentary wise?

Greg Williams 
Yeah. So Jeff and I have just launched a new effort called High Watch Media and we...we announced a film called Born to Serve that's in production around a tennis player. Jeff also -- Jeff Riley -- edited and produced a bunch of 30 for 30s so this is like his world coming between recovery and tennis and sports. And so it's going to be a great film about Murphy Jensen and the Jensen brothers who have a hero's journey on multiple levels. And then we're also working on a history series called Mecca's of Recovery that should be out, you know, probably next year, at some point. 

Steve Martorano 
So, good luck there. Sounds exciting. And thanks again for joining us on the Behavioral Corner.

Retreat Behavioral Health 
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