The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while

Bob Dylan 
You may be an ambassador to England or France. You may like to gamble, you might like to dance. You may be the heavyweight champion of the world. You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls. But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed - you're gonna have to serve somebody...

Steve Martorano 
So, there are some words of wisdom from a Nobel Prize winner. And Mr. Dylan has sort of set the topic for us today. Hi, everybody, Steve Martorano, with you on the Behavioral Corner, where we talk about, well, everything because that's what affects behavioral health. And we got a good one for you today. We're hanging on the Corner, this time, with our great friend and a real helping hand in the past, when we've reached out to Joi to help us with topics and people and stuff like that Joi Honer is our guest. Joi is the Corporate Director of Engagement for Retreat Behavioral Health. They, of course, are underwriting partners. And as Bobby Dylan just said, we're going to talk about...we're gonna talk about service...service in the sort of a two-fold way. One in the obvious way of helping others, but also in maintaining sobriety. Some people call serving a kind of secret weapon on how to keep your sobriety going. So Hi, Joi, and thanks so much for joining us again, on the Corner.

Joi Honer 
Hi Steve, I'm actually really grateful to be here, which is one of the benefits of service is, you know, being...being engaging in service and being able to maybe share your story is one way that you can cultivate that feeling of service.

Steve Martorano 
Well, certainly that's been a secret weapon for this program because I...I know that I can reach out to people like yourself and everybody at Retreat, and say, "Hey, listen, I need some help with stuff. And you know, it's all hands on deck." So we're really grateful. This is a terrific topic because I think some people don't quite grasp the notion of all this and the benefits that flow two ways. In dedicating yourself to helping other people. It's one of those things we grow up with, right? You're supposed to help your fellow human beings. Tell us why it's so very important in terms of maintaining sobriety, to dedicate yourself to service.

Joi Honer 
The good thing is, is I'm going to intersect two pieces to this. And the first one, it...will...I mean, I'll address it in the terms of recovery. But really service work. And what we know about and how we study service work tells us that it's good for everyone. And it's good for mental health and wellness, which in turn, clearly is also good for recovery. And what those folks in the early stages of developing some recovery programs did acknowledge that feeling. In fact, one was built on that. You know, Bill and Bob, when I met, Bill Wilson was like, this feeling of giving something back to another person makes me want to do well, myself. Makes me want to show up for people. And I think that absolutely that is, you know, that is one of the tenants of recovery, the 12 step talks about continuing to give back. And in some ways services are mentioned in a couple of other steps, because when people make amends -- very often they make amends -- or amend their behavior by giving back. So definitely, this is an important topic...an important topic that deserves some time. So I appreciate you spending time. So first things first. Service work, what they know from studies and from brain studies activates the brain in the same areas that pleasure is activated. So it activates it in a different way. What they've noticed was that -- yes, it activates the same area in the brain that makes people feel good -- but it lasts longer. And it reduces stress. So some things that are activated -- we eat a good taco and our pleasure center are activated, but you know, so...so everything that activates the pleasure center isn't always necessarily positive and long-lasting. But, what they noticed was that people that gave back where that pleasure center was activated, created a more positive overall experience.

Steve Martorano 
Right. The endorphins that flood your brain during the taco are short-lived. That's why you always need that second taco.

Joi Honer 
Exactly.

Steve Martorano 
But I can see where service, you'd feel good about that the rest of the day, for instance.

Joi Honer 
Yeah, it would be longer lasting, it had more of a genuine, long-term effect. They also did a study -- several studies. Because I take it seriously when you say you want to talk about something, Steve and I do tend to look at what science tells us about it. And they've noticed with elderly people, the more volunteering and the more service they do, they are significantly less likely to...to when they did a study in one in one place that people were 44% less likely to pass within the next five years. And that was when they moved everything else out of the way. Exercise, you know, they tried to like and all those other things. So all those other factors were similar and you're talking about a 44% increase in wellness. So, yes, services are important for recovery and it does give us some really good feelings. But there are many other aspects of service that are important. One of them is it promotes connection. So normally, when I do service, or when you do service we're with other people. It's not often that we're not doing it out there somewhere in a community with another human helping on a street. For instance, I think you interviewed Clayton Ruley, and I volunteer at Prevention Point when I have the opportunity. So there I am with other people who have common goals and common interests, we have the same ideas in mind, we see exactly who we're benefiting. And so service work, whether you're speaking to one person who may be questioning whether they need recovery, or you're helping 100...feed 100 people - that personal connection makes a difference for both parties. You know, I think that in the NA (Narcotics Anonymous) Basic Text it says "One addict helping another is without parallel." And that's one power that we have, I've been in long-term recovery for a really long time. And one of the things that were almost immediate, in those early recovery times was that if I had a week, I could say to somebody, "Hey, I've made it one week, you can make it today." You know, for the person who only had one day. And so that power, that ability to help people in that way, can start on day one. If you've got an hour longer than somebody, you can say to them, I'm one hour ahead of you, you got this, you can get this. I'm one day ahead of you. And so people who come into recovery that say, you know, I don't have a lot, you know, I'm not worth a lot, I've messed up, I don't have anything, I don't have anything to give I, you know, and their inner sense of self is really in a bad place. They eventually, very quickly, if they're, if they're involved in the community in recovery, can see how their story can benefit another person. And they can build on that. And so that promotes that connection. But it also builds a sense of value -- personal value.

Steve Martorano
One of the things I've been noticing and have read about with regard to this is that the substance abuser when they were active users, was utterly and completely about their disease. They were the essence of...of (it was) self-absorbed, everything was about this...this drug or this alcohol or this behavior, to the exclusion of everything else. Service breaks, that cycle doesn't take you outside yourself?

Joi Honer
Absolutely. And in multiple ways. It allows us to experience empathy, and take another person's experience and understand. Because usually when I do service, it's motivated by, I know how this hurts, or I'm sad for that person. And I want them to have what I had. You know, I have many dog rescue places on my newsfeed you know, and so, you know, I...Walmart had a sale on dog blankets, and I bought a whole bunch of them. Why because I don't want a dog in a cage thinking about how cold he's gonna be. You know, and so it makes us think of others, that me become we, in a bigger sense, and they're right.

Steve Martorano
It's a great way to describe...describe that behavior because very often the cynics among us, we'll look at people who are very deeply engaged in say animal rescue, and go, "Gee, they should care about people as much as they care about animals" but in fact, they are caring about -- it's the same process only it's directed towards this animal this time and the next time it might be the guy who's struggling with with a substance abuse issue.

Joi Honer
Our empathy for other people's experiences is really what motivates us to service.

Steve Martorano
Sure. Right. And then we guess we can't spend enough time building our...our empathy. Joi Honer is our guest. She is a Corporate Director of Engagement with Retreat, Behavioral Health. We're talking about service in regards to just helping people of course, but also in maintaining one's own sobriety. Let's take a minute if we could, and have you described, what exactly we mean when we say service. I mean, it seems self-evident, while you're helping other people. But there's a lot of ways to help other people -- lots of things they need. How does somebody who really wants to be of service go about deciding what kind of service they should provide?

Joi Honer
Well, I kind of mentioned that earlier. And I think that you should figure out what you're passionate about what moves you because service, you know, I mean I definitely have shown up for places and things, because I had obligations or, but what really speaks to me, is really what motivates me to take the time to do that. So it could be for instance, if you're in recovery, obviously helping other people in recovery. But service can, for instance, for me, helping people who are experiencing homelessness, is in that genre because very often, substance use disorder impacts people's ability to be housed. So that's still you know, a piece of what my passion is because, you know, I was a person in recovery, I'm pretty passionate about that. But also, I love my dog, you know, so it makes me buy...you know, so finding...it makes me...what makes me show up are the things that are important to me. So just opening it a book, and...and sticking a finger and saying, This is where I'm going to volunteer, that's really good. And that may work for somebody, I wouldn't say if you don't know what your passion is, don't do it. I say then go try different...different places and different ways to give service back. Some people like speaking and some people hate it. Like some people like advocacy, and some people don't want to put them or can't even put themselves in a pub...out in a public way as far as their personal recovery. For whatever reason, that's not wrong...there's no wrong way to do service. Well, their might...no there's no wrong way to do it. Sometimes motivation you kind of have to watch, but I think we'll mention that a little bit later.


Steve Martorano 
Yeah, yeah.

Joi Honer
You know, so...so...so to start, if you...if you don't have something that you connect to, and you're passionate about, try different types of volunteerism. Try different...some people for service there are organizations that support all those peer-led support groups, like 12 Step groups. Some people find service by being responsible to represent one of those groups with larger parent organizations. So some people find setting up the coffee for a meeting every single week for six months. You know, or cleaning up the clubhouse. So you know getting on a board for a nonprofit organization? That is service That a different kind of service.

Steve Martorano
You know, what would be really helpful here? Because I don't know that I've ever had anybody describe this. How do you How would someone go about setting starting a meeting 12 step meeting? How, how does that process begin? What if they happen to be someplace where there's no meeting? Or they didn't like the meeting? Did they go to? How do I start an AA meeting? I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Joi Honer
The first thing you want to do is find someplace willing to donate a building or spot, you know. Typically, honestly, church basements, it's been kind of a thing now, but church basements are the place you know, self-help organizations, very...find friends with religious organizations and allowing them to get space. You don't want some space that's too expensive. Because you're going to use donations to pay for that space, but find a space and you find one other person who you can either help or who's willing to help. Now I always say this, in any endeavor, with self-help when you're just starting out. It's always best to find a partner. Because starting anything takes a lot of work and you need somebody to help carry that with you. And sometimes the newcomer, the person in early recovery is not that person because you're giving to that person you're not going to have you know, there's not going to probably be your backup to show up for the meeting. So Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Smart Recovery, Dharma Recovery -- they all have governing organizations. If you go online, you can reach out to them and they will have some guidelines. Basically, they do give each group and I'm quoting the traditions here "autonomy," except when it affects the entire organization. So within reason, some of that stuff you will have -- like what type of meeting what, you know, if it's a woman's meeting, if it's a speaker meeting that some of that stuff, you'll have some ability to play around with, but you've reached out to that organization. And then they will give you some other guidance around the collection and you know, who...who you would send donations to, and all that other stuff, there's all of those places that I mentioned, already have things in place. Now, say, if you notice a gap in something, and you want to start a group of people who get together to talk about sibling loss, for instance, to suffer from substance abuse, that's a, you know, challenge. You know, maybe in your area, you reach out to the local mental health facilities or treatment facilities and say, "Hey, I'd like to get this group started" to just have people support each other in this challenge. Or people -- siblings of people who suffer from substance use disorder, because you're always kind of that, you know, you deal with it in a different way that a parent would deal with it. So really, it is finding a spot -- a place. And then I always say, Find a mentor, find somebody who's going to tell you how to do, you know, give you the support you need, but also kind of say, "Well, did you think about this? Or do you just think about that? " So look for a mentor, when you're building may be a support group,

Steve Martorano 
You know, it's never been easier to connect, we know social media can cause a lot of problems. But in terms of being able to sort of spread the word, it's never been easier to go interested in a support group for folks, you know, in recovery, we meet in the church. But I think...I think most people sit around going, where do you even find a meeting? Once you're dedicated to doing the service? It probably all falls into place. It seems self-evident. But I'd like you to talk a little bit about it. In terms of the -- what goes on in that service loop from the person who's helping and the person who's receiving. What's the effect on them with regard to anxiety depression and self-doubt? Does this process, alleviate a lot of that?

Joi Honer 
Well, it kind of depends on someone's orientation. And what I mean by that is this: I need to do my work first in some ways, so I need to check myself. -- sometimes service work -- and I did want to mention this -- sometimes...there's a common term for it in recovery circles is called the "2 Step" -- you do the first step in the 12 steps and you miss everything in between. Sometimes when people realize helping other people feels really, really good, they start to do a lot in it, like they do other things a lot of and they don't necessarily take the time to care for themselves or make sure that they're what they're sharing they're actually doing. You know, to make sure that they're taking care of themselves first because there are losses. And especially in this field and when you're dealing with active substance use -- between April of last year in April of this year, we lost 100,000 people to overdose -- preventable overdoses. And...

Steve Martorano 
I do want to get into that because it's something that...it's always devastating when...when someone overdoses and dies. But before we get to that, there's another thing that occurs to me with regard to service, even the well the best intended among us, we want to help other people. Do you find that this? Sometimes we overthink this like, "Jeez, is that important enough to do? "I need something -- I need to help in some really important way" Is that...that's a mistake, isn't it?

Joi Honer 
I think so. Because I think that the act of service should be service for itself. If I'm concerned about the size of service, and I hate to say this, but this is kind of my opinion, if I'm worried about how big or small it is, my ego is... Well, you know, are people going to know how much service? Is people...how many people am I going to help and, you know, there's no scale on service. The act of being kind the act of giving something...somebody...something...when you're walking by them on the street if they're asking for help, is just as important to figure out a system that helps, you know, that...that you know, developing a nonprofit. And why it's because that person is important. That person has value. So yes, if you get caught in the weeds ask yourself is what is this about?

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, right. Though many people think that the first step is I'll form a nonprofit, and then suddenly, you know, how do you do that and you're all hung up on how do you form a nonprofit? That's great if you get around to doing that -- that's...that's terrific. But it really is the small gestures that begin to build up and matter. The other thing I've read about service, you talked about, you know, changing brain chemistry and the positive feelings we get for that. The other thing I have read is that it helps us stay in this moment -- in the moment.

Joi Honer 
Mm-hmm. Absolutely, it is a mindful practice that helps us be present for whatever we're doing, then. And a lot of times service work does require our attention. So some things we can do without paying any attention. I mean, you know, seriously nowadays, you know, we're multi-screen people, you know, and a lot of things we do mindlessly. I mean, I hate to say, but even drive, sometimes. You ever drive somewhere, and you're like, how do I get here, you know because your mind is going here and there. But usually, when we're participating in service, we are extending ourselves to other people and that promotes this immediate sense of, I need to be present for this person. And, and that's where I say, that's why it's important to pull that ego out of it. And that's the thing. So service, like you said, sometimes people want to be gurus, you know, they want to say the most impressive thing and not the thing that might not, and sometimes -- and I...and I've experienced this myself. Sometimes I get caught up in the...what can I say? What, you know, I get caught up in thinking about, well, how do I respond and I'm not listening to the person.

Steve Martorano 
That's a great point because, yeah, you're right. What should I say to them when another form of service that's maybe just as important is how can I listen to them? How can I hear them?

Joi Honer 
Many people just want to be acknowledged heard and seen. And that's where places like Prevention Point always get to my heart because just giving somebody a meal, is a gesture that's really connected to that person's basic needs. You know, I'm not telling them oh, well, let me tell you how to do this, or tell you how to do that. And that's the other piece of services, bringing non-judgment into that.

Steve Martorano 
The a -- it's certainly an old tradition, there's nothing new about it -- but this notion of providing service, in a humble way, is very important. Otherwise, you're right, you become preachy and judgmental. One of the things I found out from watching my wife who volunteers, at a food bank a lot, and, you know, you begin to go well, how many people are really hungry, and you know, and all of that. And then you begin to realize her stories - these are often not people who are desperately hungry, but they are, in the phrase they know use now, "food insecure." So this kind of service makes it easier for someone like that, to take this because most people go "I don't want...its charity. I don't want this." I guess what I'm saying is the proper service attitude is "No, no, there's no judgment here. Here, have some food."

Joi Honer 
Exactly. Or you know, and even that comes to how people access or in the recovery realm, that same non-judgment. How do you want to recover? How can I help you with the path that you need to walk? How can I be there for you? And that's the point is to witness people's recovery, not necessarily tell people what to do. Because that's the other piece is that while I can have empathy, I can always rely on my own experiences to tell other people what to do. Because my recovery doesn't mean it's your recovery. You know, that service thing, again, goes back to what am I operating out of? I have to operate out of your ability and needs not mine.

Steve Martorano 
That's a great point. How do people -- are people naturally inclined towards understanding what someone wants and needs? Where do they have to sort of grope around? You know, the first question is, I'd like to help what kind of helped us this person need?

Joi Honer 
Right.

Steve Martorano 
How do you get to that point? Where you know...

Joi Honer 
I go back to listen to them.

Steve Martorano 
They'll tell you, right?

Joi Honer 
Yeah, because some people aren't willing to give up this or that or are willing to give up this but are afraid to give up. I mean, very often, we don't know people's stories and what they come to. So when we're giving to other people, we have to really listen to what's important to them. That's really the point of the stages of change and motivational interviewing is meeting people where they are. Not assuming they're here when they're here. And allowing them to be here and talking about well, what...what...what's important to you. Not what is...was important to Joi, it's what's important to the people that you're helping and that's, that's true, whether in a counseling setting or whether in a 12 step set. You know, because you can't start people from where they're not. You got to figure out where people are at and then help them start from that point.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. One of my favorite expressions I use so many times during the show is that "Every story of substance abuse and recovery is different, but they're all the same." At the core, it's the same story, you just have to find out -- there's sort of a wavelength going on and tapping into it and going, I see where...I see where they're at. Joi. I want to touch upon this one because I know it can be scary for people. As you said, 100,000 people overdosed and died in one calendar year. The whole thing aspirated...exasperated by, you know, the pandemic and everything else. But it happens, we all know relapse happens. We all know, tragically, people die. If you are involved in service and someone you're helping doesn't make it. How do you avoid having that just send you on a tailspin? And maybe relapse?

Joi Honer 
Well, I would say the first thing comes back to what I said is anybody that you're helping, especially those in recovery, you need to know that - and there's a saying, and their recovery circles, you can carry the message, but you can't carry the person. And you need to know that whatever you do, or whatever you give to them. That's where your control ends, but you give to them. And so honestly, you can't take responsibility for people in recovery, either. If they...if they take what you have, and they apply it, they did it. And so the same goes for if they return to using. No offense, you get credit for showing up. You get credit for sharing. You get credit for encouraging. But you can't take credit for the recovery, and you cannot take credit for their relapse.

Steve Martorano 
That's an incredibly important point.

Joi Honer 
But the other thing is, it's important for you, as a person that gives back, I mean, as somebody who's been...I've been in the field for over 30 years. I mean, I've personally experienced significant losses over that period of time. This is a disease that's fatal. I need to take care of myself and sometimes that's going into counseling if I have to go into it. You know, if something triggers me -- sometimes, for instance, a smaller loss might trigger a loss that you've you have some feelings about in the past. I mean, I know people that have been triggered by the loss of somebody they were sponsoring or supporting but it kind of came back to a loss that they experienced -- you know, we sometimes -- some of that old stuff comes out. Yeah, what I'm basically saying is this grief is grief. And if you feel significant grief over the loss of somebody that you were helping, you need to get support for that, whether it's talking to your support system, engaging in counseling. There's a group called G.R.A.S.P. It's grief recovery or those who have lost people due to substance use, and the website is grasphelp.org -- g-r-a-s-p-help.org. And it's an organization that does support meetings for people who have lost people as a result of substance use. Now, you may not be that close to this person it is but it still feels like a loss. And I just want to say that you have to stop and pay attention to that and honor it and feel it and process it with your support people. Don't dismiss it, because maybe you didn't know that person for years or any of that. A loss is a loss. So you have to honor that loss in the way -- that you have to manage that in a healthy way. And how that looks for you is important.

Steve Martorano 
It's a great piece of advice because if you are sincere in your service, something like this-- a loss of somebody, while tragic is not a failure. It's not a personal failure. You know, what I've noticed, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you go on this and get to your comment on this. This is interesting, too. You know, there's plenty of examples of things like "compassion fatigue," where people every day I see so much misery and suffering just a general just in the news and everything. And after a while, you become sort of hardened to it. And there's a, "I can't handle it anymore." This I have observed through you got folks like you for sure that not only is there no compassion fatigue, but they're energized, they want to do more and more...

Joi Honer 
Well, and I think that that's the part that's important is that you have to change your relationship with giving in order to continue to sustain something especially like when you were in a situation where you see a lot of loss and a lot of, you know, people that volunteer, you know, with animals that were abused, you know, it must be really painful to see some of you know, the things that you see and experience. And I guess that's the point is you have to learn how to be empathetic and supportive, but not carry that pain with you. And that's a...you know, honestly, I mentioned I I'm going to mention Al-Anon. That was a very supportive organization that not only helped me personally but professionally, remember what I'm responsible for and what I'm not responsible for.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, what you can do what you can't do that.

Joi Honer 
Yeah, and so it's that perspective. If you find yourself getting burnout, listen to it and do something with it. You may be able to continue to help and then simultaneously deal with that. But if you start to feel compassion fatigue, do something -- do something. It won't go away. It will impact you and your ability to help others.

Steve Martorano 
It's not gonna go away. Joi Honer, thanks. You're always a great asset to this program. We...we know we can always call upon you to give us really good information. And we appreciate it. Congratulations on the new job title and duties at Retreat. Joi is Corporate Director of Engagement and she's a great friend of the program. Joi, thanks so much for hanging on the Corner with us.

Joi Honer 
Thank you.

Steve Martorano 
You're you'll be hearing from me, if not to be on the show you're the one I go, "Oh my God, I need this!" and I call Joi.

Joi Honer 
I hope you keep doing it.

Steve Martorano 
I will for sure. Joi Honer, thanks so much. And thank you guys as well and don't forget to follow us on Facebook Twitter and Instagram and appreciate it. See you next time on the Behavioral Corner.

Retreat Behavioral Health 
Retreat Behavioral Health has proudly been serving the community for over ten years. Here at Retreat, we believe in the power of connection and quality care. We offer a comprehensive holistic and compassionate treatment from industry-leading experts. Call 855-802-6600 or visit us at www.retreatbehavioralhealth.com to begin your journey today. 

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