The Behavioral Corner 
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health, where healing happens

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while.

Steve Martorano 
Hey, everybody, Hi, and welcome to the behavioral corner. My name is Steve Martorano. This is where I hang out and present you with our podcast. Our podcast, I like to say, is about everything because that's what affects our behavioral health. Everything. To that end, we wait on the corner here and great and interesting people fall by. Many of them come from our underwriting partners Retreat Behavioral Health, they not only keep the lights on around here, but they always provide me with great, great people. Today is a terrific case in point two of my favorite...favorite people from Retreat. They've been on the program with us in the past many times. And they join us today with a brand new assignment for them. Grace Shober and Maggie Hunt from Retreat Behavioral Health are back with us on the Corner. They are heretofore referred to as "The Movie Mavens" and will tell you about that in just a second. They are with Retreat, Behavioral Health, they have professional people there. They have many duties, they've done many things to help other people get clean and sober. They are in addition to being successful career women, they are -- I have checked this out with friends and relatives -- they are successful wives and mothers as well. And the reason they've joined us to talk about movies and television is that they're experts not so much in cinema -- cinema, as they said -- the college courses, but in the topic that we're going to discuss substance abuse and mental health issues, as they are depicted by Hollywood is what we're gonna do when a kind of recurring basis here. Because the truth of the matter is that much of what the public thinks they understand about a lot of stuff comes to them not through direct experience, but through films. So we're going to kind of break it down when it comes to things in sport and substance abuse and say, "Okay, this movie was fun, but it got this role, or it got this right." So I got two experts, because in addition to their almost 20 years now of collective sobriety -- 20 years of collective sobriety -- Grace and Maggie and they've told the story many times here -- have had a tremendous struggle with substance abuse. I know both of their stories, the details, I'm sure will come up in dribs and drabs as we talk to them, but I will tell you this that from a standpoint of a rough go, these two take a backseat to nobody that they are where they are today is a monumental achievement. So when I say they're experts, I get it. So I...I'm done...I'm done, you know, blowing a lot of smoke at you guys, because you know, I love you both. I know you like this idea, right? Do you like this idea? This idea is gonna be fun, isn't it?

Maggie Hunt 
Yeah, we love this idea. 

Grace Shober 
Really good.

Steve Martorano 
You know what? I want to begin with the question I told Maggie, I would spring on you, too. If you could come up with one thing. In general, very general, what movies and television get wrong about substance abuse? What would it be? Would it be the depiction of treatment? Or what? Would that be the one thing that you think they get wrong? Or consistently?

Maggie Hunt 
Well, it reminds me...there's this movie called Pineapple Express. And in Pineapple Express, they're talking about this guy who played a role. And I'm not going to say the term they said but you...they sometimes like they go too far or like not enough. So there's not necessarily a middle ground. So they're either, you know, really trying to pretend and you're like, "This isn't sincere" or not enough where you're like, "I don't even think that you are actually an actor, like doing this role." So it's, I don't know, it's like they tried to go to...they try to go too hard or not enough. But it's also like, a lot of people can do addiction. But not a lot of people can do the like withdrawal recovery process. So like, it's easy to pretend you're like a drunk person. Do you know what I mean? And like, it's easy to show the consequences. But then like, the transition into is not what is real life.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, I've often said that. What movies don't show is that to get sober is a process and not a 90 minute or 28-day event. Grace for you what's the thing they get wrong?

Grace Shober 
Yeah, kinda Like piggyback, but it's the treatment part of it that I feel like it's kind of like glorified the treatment part. It's like, oh, this is so fun. And this is great, you know, and as Maggie said was like, not like really getting the point of like, what withdrawal can look like what your mental health can go through, like during this first, you know, a couple of days, two weeks in treatment. I feel like it's kind of always off point when it comes to that aspect.

Maggie Hunt 
Kind of like also kind of like "doom and gloom," you know what I mean? Like, when I thought about what getting sober would look like I think about, you know, a group of older males, no offense, Steve, older males, sitting in a circle, feel...just being like, "Oh, man, like, here's, you know, here, I'm trying to be in recovery. And I'm like..."

Steve Martorano 
I have a question about that. You know, even when movies don't deal specifically with substance abuse. There's a, you know, a long history of showing people in meetings, you know, even if it's got nothing to do with the movie, suddenly the character will be there meeting, right. In your experience then never show those meetings as they really are. I mean, as, as you remember them, Grace.

Grace Shober 
Yeah. I mean it' depends...I mean, yes, kind of just because like, it is like a conversation, there are people speaking. They do get it wrong, that there's not like the best coffee in the world and these great doughnuts there. There's always at those meetings. In the movies, but I mean, for the most part, yeah. I mean, it's a group of people sitting around talking, you know, and sharing their story. There's not a whole lot that you can really go wrong with there, in my opinion.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. When you two were using, how much film going...how many times it goes, you go to movies a lot when you're using drugs, Maggie.

Maggie Hunt 
No, no, any dollar that I had was not spent on the cinema. Now, I...I...probably told my mom, I was going to the movies quite a lot. She probably thought I was going to the movies. But I was not actually using the money she was giving me to go to the movies.

Steve Martorano 
Great, same with you. Right?

Grace Shober 
Yeah, absolutely. I was, you know, I needed that money for whatever else and movies was not the top of that list.

Steve Martorano 
So, um, you know, there's, there's a whole list I sent, you know, you go on Google, you can get a list, right? You know, top 10 condiments, you know? So I said, well, you know, best movies that deal with substance abuse, and you get 10,000 different lists. But the one I sent you guys I thought was fairly well put together. And one at the top. I don't know if these are in order, but one of the tops goes right to the issue you just said I don't think I've ever seen a better depiction of the 24/7 life of somebody trying to stay high than Drugstore Cowboy, the Matt...the Matt Dillon movie from many...20 years ago now. Where they are, you know, low-level thieves robbing drugstores, to support their habit. It's an all-day thing, right? It's all day all the time. Coppin' then get more money than worried about how long you know, am I going to be able to stay high before I have to do it again? Have you ever run into a movie that really shows...really shows that...that kind of hustle, Grace?

Grace Shober 
Yeah, I mean, I have I think, honestly, for me, the movie The Fighter. When it comes to Christian Bale, I think that he kind of depicts that perfectly. Like it is non-stop all the time. You know, that's what he's focused on. He's got things in between. But that would be one movie. I think that kind of like pops to the forefront of my mind when I think of like -- that is really the life day in and day out of like somebody who's struggling with addiction.

Steve Martorano 
On that list, I sent you an I know you guys have like favorites on that list. You both jumped at the Leonardo DiCaprio movie, right?

Maggie Hunt 
Yeah, I mean, I was brought to tears by that movie, because of...

Steve Martorano 
That's The Basketball Diaries, by the way.

Maggie Hunt 
The Basketball Diaries -- I was brought to tears the first time I saw that movie, which was i i was not yet sober when I saw or had even been to treatment when I saw that movie, you know, and I didn't know... You know you don't wake up and know what addiction is gonna look like for you. Do you know what I mean? But when I saw Leonardo DiCaprio pounding on the mother's door for $5 I was like...I was...I was a mess because that is what it looks like at the end of the day. Not any of these other things. Like your...you know, screaming yelling at your mom for $5 You know, what I mean, like... And like, I was...I remember...I remember being like shocked. 

Steve Martorano 
You...you were...you were still using...you were using when you saw it? 

Maggie Hunt 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
And then you went out and got high, right?

Maggie Hunt 
For sure. Yeah. I probably...I probably didn't even make it through the whole movie because I probably nodded out asleep or something.

Grace Shober 
Yeah, put yourself in that point of view at the time. Like, I know, I can look back Maggie's tooth and look back. And like, we've absolutely treated our family like that, too. For any amount of money could have been $1 $5, whatever, even just like something to eat. But I think it was like, great to have like, on the other side of that, like showing...I think it's harder for like actors and actresses to maybe play like the parent or family member, somebody who's struggling. So like to see that on the other side, especially in that movie Basketball Diaries is like it really hard.

Steve Martorano 
Well, that's a great point of we're talking to Grace and Maggie, Grace Shober and Maggie Hunt -- Movie Mavens -- from here on out. That's a great point, Grace, because, on the list, there are a couple of things. Most of the time the object of these movies is the people abusing them. And yeah, there's collateral damage and stuff. But you never really...only a few movies that I can think of, do you see the struggle of the spouse. Or the parent -- and even then, I'm not seeing one, you tell me if I'm wrong. Were they accurate...they really get how a family reacts to this because it's not all. I'll do everything I can. I'll move heaven and earth -- sometimes just like get out, right? Is there ever...have you ever seen a movie where they showed family members going, "I can't deal with this get out."

Maggie Hunt 
There were two movies that came out recently, within the past 10 years. I think one was Julia Roberts -- and that was called Ben is Back and that, you know, she was...she had this the son from a different marriage and had younger siblings, and they, you know, couldn't come around the younger siblings. It was...that one was pretty decent. And then the other one was Steve Carell. I think it's Beautiful. Boy, is that the right one?

Steve Martorano 
Yes. That's basically based on a true story.

Maggie Hunt 
You know, that one, he, you know, was like, I'll you know, I'll do what you know, do whatever, and never give up and all that kind of stuff. But, yeah, those two movies, I think that I think that they did a good job, too.

Steve Martorano 
I think it was Andy Garcia, maybe Meg Ryan, on When a Man Loves a Woman. She is...she has an alcohol problem. And he is driven to, you know, despair, trying to keep his wife together and the family as well. But you know, again, sometimes they get the periphery of these stories right. Other times they don't. I wonder what you think and again, we will get into this in some detail when we talk about the movie specifically. But you think too often they got...they don't intend to glamorize these stories. But if you put two movie stars in a movie, even if you're depicting them behaving badly, they're still movie stars. Right? Grace, you mentioned A Star is Born. I mean, you know...you can...you can miss the fact that this is about a guy in a real crisis, make it you know, I don't want to give away the ending, but it ends badly for the Bradley Cooper character. You think that's just the natural problem with you know when Hollywood tackles a problem, they put attractive movie stars in it. And sometimes it doesn't look real.

Grace Shober 
Yeah, absolutely. That can happen in movies, but I will say that they are. I mean, they're getting paid like, you know, so much money. And so they are losing weight, you know, kind of make them look a little bit dirty, like Mila Kunis and that again, the names escaping me right now of that movie. She was just in like, like, she looked rough. I'll tell you right now. I think she's like, a beautiful woman. But she didn't look like that movie. So I think they are like Maggie said within like the past however many years they're getting better with making them look worse. But there are absolutely movies where you're just like, wow, like they look way too good to be struggling right now.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, I mean, I love Silver Linings Playbook. I mean, it's just, by the way, it's a Christmas movie, you know that don't you? It's about Christmas. And in this era, because it's a local thing and everything, but with regard with all due respect to every woman who ever lived in Delaware County. Jennifer Lawrence is the best-looking woman ever to come out and Delco in the history of Delaware County. And you know, you just go wait a minute and Bradley Cooper. That was a story actually, as you guys know of two people traumatized. One with real mental health issues, anger management, and bipolar disorder, on meds in treatment, you know, court-ordered. And a woman whose husband died tragically, and you know, it derailed her. But that's sort of gone. And suddenly it's two quirky people, right? They're just quirky. So as much as I love that movie, I would, if we were going to grade that would go, I don't know. How do you feel in terms of the message?

Grace Shober 
Well, it just kind of hit me because Maggie and I were talking about this earlier. And the word "quirky" is the word that she used when it came to what we were talking about. There is like, a lot. I mean, it's not like every single day, like, there were days that I would like, you know, fake to be okay, or laugh or, you know, joke around or whatever. But I do find that way too many times in movies such as that they are, like, too quirky. And it's not like that, you know, it just not. So it just reminded me of what we were talking about earlier. So I think that was the right word to describe that.

Steve Martorano 
If you think back on the film, the only person who seems really -- and again, they made it quirky -- the only person who seems really put out by his son's condition is De Niro the father. And he's really only upset because it's screwing up is betting on the Eagles. So again, they take this real-life problem. And by the way, anybody who's had anybody in their family with serious bipolar, or depression issues, there's nothing funny about it. There's a single thing funny about it. But they see this...this is what we...this is what we want to do with the program Movie Mavens. We don't want to rain on your parade. Because Silver Linings is a terrific movie, it should not form your opinion about depression, anxiety, or bipolar disorder by the way those two behave. I mean, you got to be careful about that. So if we can be some help in steering you in the right direction, then this will be not only fun, but we think worthwhile. So let me ask you about when you look at these movies, now, any movie that has to do with substance abuse. Are you able to watch it with your family? Or is it too painful to go down that road again? Mag, you had the occasion to watch this with anybody in your family to remind you of the "bad old days."

Maggie Hunt 
So Four Good Days, that movie where like, she has to stay sober for four days before she can get her Vivitrol shot. My mom, like, I would never watch it with her, because it would absolutely take her right back. Because, like been...there been there in trying to stay sober, like just a couple days to get you to know, somewhere. And so I can't watch it with her. It takes her right back so she says things that like annoy me too like, she'll be like, "You were just like that." And um, you know, we like, "Yeah, see, see." You know, like, so it's like, I don't like going back that way. Um, but obviously, there's some...some movies that like I have seen, you know, have seen with her, too -- that we can, you know, have a nice dialogue with as well. 

Steve Martorano 
Grace, how about you?

Grace Shober 
Yeah, I mean, the same thing. My...my dad in particular won't even watch that. Because he's, super emotional. And so like, he would not be able to really like watching that. We wouldn't be able to watch that together. Definitely. But there are movies that we have, like, I would say their movies that we've watched together in regards to but typically what happens is he'll watch a movie and if it like reminds me of anything at all, regarding like my addiction and stuff. He'll call me afterward to make sure I'm okay. You know, because -- and my mom too. It'll like to trigger him back to like those, like terrible times. And so it is emotional. It's not tough for me to watch those movies. If they do make me sad, you know, because it will like to remind you of certain things like thank goodness, that's not what it is anymore. But I could watch them, I wouldn't really be able to watch them too much with family.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, you know what, that's a common enough experience, even if it's not associated with the pain of substance abuse. You know, I mean, if you've been married for any length of time, and you're presented with a movie called, let's say, Scenes From a Marriage. My instinct will be to go, "Nah, I don't want to sit through that with my wife." I'm not going to come off looking good. I mean, this is there's gonna be stuff going on. And that's gonna make me cringe. I can imagine what it's like when it's traumatic. You mentioned your family's reactions to these things. Do you think there is any danger for maybe people in early recovery? If they see movies like this? Would you advise them depending upon the movie to stay away from a certain film? Grace? Would you think that's good advice for some people?

Grace Shober 
I do think that's good advice. I think there's like a time in place. There's like, you know, in like brand new recovery and my sobriety, I wouldn't have wanted to watch Requiem for a Dream or anything like that. And I just think that there are things that can be because -- like your mind's not like healed yet and you don't feel like totally healed. And so like some of these things that are meant to not be glamorous, kind of almost triggers in your mind like "you missed that" or there is like this glamour factor to it. It's kind of hard to explain. I know Maggie knows exactly what I'm talking about. But like, you know, I used to watch Intervention because I'd be like, "That reminds me of like, I know I can't do it, it reminds me of it." And I think it can be kind of dangerous. I'm not saying to, stray away from like, every single movie, but there is a risk factor to watching movies that are like, pretty, pretty brutal. When it comes to addiction.

Steve Martorano 
We're gonna start talking about some television shows as well. Intervention is one troubling -- I found it troubling. Again, my role here now is just to facilitate. My only background and substance abusers what these experts have told me for years now, I've heard a lot of stories. I will yield anybody. But the reality-based stuff that Hollywood is now cranking out, strikes me is problematic, because I think when you turn it into, first of all, you alleged to be real, which is troublesome. It's one thing if you make it up, but when you allege it to be real, and then they get episodic. There's a formula to Intervention. It's the same show every week, culminating at that moment. I wonder whether that kind of stuff does...any good or ill? Maggie, do you...do you sometimes think there are ethical issues with the show, for instance, a show where they'll show you people shooting up?

Maggie Hunt 
Well, I was just gonna say I learned how to smoke heroin on intervention. So literally. I was like, at home didn't have certain things like, "You know what I feel like on that show on intervention, that I saw that I can do this" and then I did. You know, they glorify it, because it's like that sex and fast, you know, it sells, right? I was thinking about Denzel Washington, American Gangster, like, I could not watch that in early sobriety. Now, I was not an American Gangster at all. But like, in my mind, I have, like part of addiction and mental health issues are these grandiose ideas, these grandiose thoughts, like, my life is only normal. And so I would have thought that I was this type of baller that he was, it was just triggering, because that's the type of life that you want to live as a drug addict and an alcoholic and you know, it what's not real life.

Steve Martorano 
You know, that's a great point. Grace, you mentioned before we got...before we started recording here -- and speaking of Denzel -- the motion picture flight. And again, we won't get deep into it. But he plays an airline pilot, that miraculously saves a bunch of lives when the plane is about to crash, but just miraculous you have to see it. But buried in there was a story of his substance abuse. Do you find that odd that they sort of snuck that in?

Grace Shober 
Well, it'd be honest with you, I'm not sure if I ever really noticed that they sped by the fact that he's an alcoholic. Because again, like I like watching the movie, but I didn't like see, like a whole lot going up to it. Um, but I think that, yeah, I think it would have been maybe helpful for some people to hear that first, or to kind of understand, like, what happens like throughout. But that movie, like in particular -- I don't think that that movie is like super duper triggering, like, there are things that could be, but I think it's a really, really good depiction on alcoholism -- consequences of alcoholism. You know, what's missing in a lot of movies is like actual consequences for certain actions and behaviors and things like that happens, like, oh, you know, that's just kind of happened. And, you know, in that movie, in particular, I think, the progression of it, the consequences of it, and like the absolute inability to not drink, even under certain circumstances was like, super powerful.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, yeah, it's very rarely will they show you someone who has every opportunity to turn it around, and then messes up. And that, really, and when you see that, I'm sure for you two guys. It has the absolute ring of truth. Because, you know, no matter what, he shouldn't take that drink, but he does. So powerful is that disease. You know, what is the other thing about flight and go this? One of the reasons I like this idea is that -- I think you're probably like me as we'll -- I have the occasion watching stuff. If it's a courtroom drama, and I'm really into it, like it. I always say to myself, I wonder if lawyers think this is all nonsense. Right? You know, can you do that in a courtroom? I don't know. Right? Or a medical drama. I wonder what nurses think of this nonsense. But in in-flight, Washington is the pilot who has to do some dramatic flying to save the lives of the people. And my brother-in-law is a pilot for United Airlines -- has been for years. So I picked up the phone. And I said, "Tom, have you seen flight?" And he went, "Yeah," I went -- before I could ask him, he went, "No, you can't do that. No, you can't do that." I said, "Okay, thanks." And then I hung up. And then, you know, that's what we're trying to get to. We're trying to get to those moments in movies about substance abuse, where no matter what else is going on, somewhere, something is not right. This point -- and then I want to pivot to a couple of television shows we're going to be watching, -- very often no matter what the story is about or how accurately they're depicting it. Because we know it's going to end in 120 minutes or 90 minutes or whatever. Its sort of tied up into a little bow of the disease of addiction until it gets...until it gets...until you get on top...of it is an ongoing process. Correct? I mean, these movies that sum it all up in 90 minutes are kidding themselves. I'm bringing that up because I thought of another movie. If you guys can find it someplace. It's hard to find because it's old. It's Al Pacino's breakthrough movie before the Godfathers and all that. It's called Panic in Needle Park. 

Grace Shober 
Oh, yeah.

Steve Martorano 
I believe -- and again, I want you guys to watch it, we'll talk about it. I thought it was the most accurate depiction of two people bonded by their addiction. It looks like a love story. But it ain't two people in trouble. And its ending has -- is so amazing. Because they just walk away and you know...you're no they're gonna go get high again. I mean, they just, there's no resolution to that -- which I understand is is troubling because people do get sober. By the way, we're going to keep an eye on two television shows, at least that you guys like and that I'm starting to watch. One is Euphoria. Which is what is that HBO, Mag? 

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, its HBO.

Steve Martorano 
It's two seasons or three. It's, it's a sensation.

Maggie Hunt 
I think they just came out the second season. 

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, it's a sensation. The young'uns love it and everyone else, as well. Have you seen any of it, Grace?

Grace Shober 
I haven't. But I will. I'll take a look at it.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, it's something. It's really something. Great music I understand. And the other one that just began -- three episodes in -- called Single Drunk Female, with drunk crossed out in the title. A young girl loses it at work because she has a drinking problem, and then has to go back to live with her mom. Maggie, you said you saw it, right?

Maggie Hunt 
Yeah, I watched the three episodes... Yeah, they were short -- it was a short episode.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, they're really short. And we probably keep an eye on those. Those of you that are, you know, at all, following the Corner, if there are movies that and we'll put stuff up on social media to remind you. Please let us know. Movies you think we should take a look at. Topics we should cover. And we will do it. The Movie Mavens. Maggie Hunt. Grace Shober. I hope you guys are into this because I really...I know you're gonna be terrific at. You already have been.

Maggie Hunt 
Yeah, great. 

Steve Martorano 
We'll put our heads together over the next couple of weeks. We'll come up with another show. We'll let you know when it's going to happen. And we'll all meet on the Corner again. Okay. 

Grace Shober 
Sounds good. 

Steve Martorano 
All right, guys. Thank you again for your time. You guys follow us on Facebook and your car -- you follow me in your car, whatever you like to do. We need to hear from you. Behavioral Corner -- see you soon.

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