About Dr. Debbie Sturm

I am a Licensed Professional Counselor and a Professor at James Madison University. Here I serve as the Director of the PhD program in Counseling & Supervision and work primarily with doctoral students. My research focuses on Climate Change & Mental Health. I am particularly interested in the impact of climate change on communities, how counselors can best advocate within their communities for mental health responsiveness and preparedness, how we can best anticipate systemic mental health services needs in the short and long term following disasters, the impact of climate change on children and youth, and the intense intersection of environmental justice, climate justice, and our most vulnerable neighbors.

I have been involved in the American Counseling Association's Task Force on Climate Change & Mental Health, am the current Chair of ACA's Human Rights Committee, serve as the Western Association of Counselor Educators and Supervisor's Committee on Climate Change Training Competencies & Curriculum, am involved in clinical support and press liaison for Climate Psychology Alliance of North America. I frequently provide trainings and continuing education on various dimensions of climate change and mental health for a wide range of audiences.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if any of this sounds interesting to you as well!

Climate Psychology Alliance of North America

If you are working through feelings about the climate crisis, the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America has compiled this collection of emotion support resources and support organizations for you.

You can look for North American providers on our Climate-Aware Therapist Directory.

UK, EU, and Australia Residents: Scroll down to find emotional support resources and therapy services provided by clinicians in the United Kingdom, Australia, and Europe.

Steve Martorano 
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens.

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while.

Steve Martorano 
Hi, and welcome to the Behavioral Corner. My name is Steve Martorano, you know what I do? I hang here on the Corner, in good weather and bad -- and that will become significant in a moment. What we do on the Behavioral Corner is we talk about everything. This is a podcast about everything because everything affects our behavioral health. We are underwritten by our great partners Retreat Behavioral Health, about which more you'll hear later. Well, you know what I'm really happy -- sort of -- to introduce today's topic, because we have pulled it -- literally pulled it -- from the headlines. This is a very significant story that you're going to be reading more and more about. Very recently, a day or two ago The New York Times, among others, had stories concerning climate change, and its impact on our mental health. Just a word or two about Time's piece, "The unseen toll of a warming world." The paragraph says, "Experts and psychologists are racing to understand the torments of a volatile, unpredictable planet, and how it shapes our minds in mental health." In February, just a month ago, a major new study highlighted the mental health effects of climate change for the first time saying that anxiety and stress from a changing climate were likely to increase in coming years. Well, we think that's probably true. And so we thought we'd go find somebody who knows much more about it than I. We are pleased to have Professor Debbie Sturm with us. Professor Sturm is in the department of Graduate Psychology at James Madison University in the Commonwealth of Virginia. She is a licensed clinician, therapist in Virginia. And she is associated with a group called the Climate psychology Alliance of North America. Professor, thanks for joining us on the Behavioral Corner.

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Steve Martorano 
I think we should begin right away with this brand-new study. But before you get to the study, why is this study brand new? How long? Has this problem of anxiety associated with climate been apparent to you and your colleagues?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Well, I think I think there are two questions that are of value. First of all, why is this study brand new? I think because of the nuances of the particular study. But the fact is that we've been talking about the sort of the psychological toll of climate change for as long as we've been talking about climate change. And I think like, over time, the sort of the names, the terms, the better understanding has evolved, but I think early on, people were talking about the stressors. At that time, probably 25-30 years ago, you had people talking about the scientists and the distress that they were experiencing, as they were envisioning what was to come. And then, you know, back in the 90s, social workers, psychologists, you know, our fields started to get a feel for the distress that would accompany the changes were they to happen. And I think at that time, many people were hoping that this is not the trajectory we were taking. But the conversation about the distress that would accompany climate change has been in place, we're just getting it much more clearly defined, much better researched, and have a greater clinical awareness of how this presents.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, let's put a fine point on this. So people can understand -- this is an interesting dynamic. It's certainly no news that the weather has affected our behavior and feelings forever. On sunny days, you feel great. Gloomy days, maybe you don't feel so well. None of that would ever have been considered a disorder, or even problematic. Your moods change because of the weather. What's changing here? And is this syndrome, whatever we're gonna call it, climate anxiety, a disorder?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
I think that's really interesting. I'm not sure that we're going to see it as a diagnostic disorder in the DSM anytime soon. And also one of the elements of climate anxiety is that it really is sort of a logical and rational response to facing the terror that's projected with climate change. So it is something that's like this makes absolute sense to feel intense angst and concern when you're faced with the details and the facts.

Steve Martorano 
Why go see a clinician with what looks like it might be a mood disorder when the logical reaction is, your right, what are you supposed to be anxious about this. It's depressing. Let's pause for a minute and explain the DSM-5 for people who don't know. What is it? And how does a behavior -- a particular behavior -- wind up in the manual as an actual disorder?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
That's a very good question. And I'm not tremendously involved in that, except to say that these tend to have years and years and years of empirical data behind them. And there are panels of people who are involved in creating the updates to the DSM. You know, that's sort of where I feel a little not skepticism, but like, I'm not sure that this is going to end up in the DSM. Or if it does, it could become like a subcategory of anxiety disorders. But again, it's hard to attach disorder to climate anxiety. It's certainly distressing. But is it disordered? It's hard to say. Because it does make so much sense.

Steve Martorano 
It's not an unimportant distinction, whether it winds up in the DSM or not. There are issues of insurance and who will pay for all this stuff and all of that. And also, I think it sharpens people's attention. Well, wait a minute, the way I'm feeling while it might be justified under the circumstances is negatively impacting my life. I think that's what we're talking about. Right? 

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Agreed. And I think there's an important sort of justice issue in there, too, when you bring up mental health concerns that are part of the DSM tend to then also be supported by our systems of care. And so people who are experiencing intense climate anxiety, but don't have the support of insurance companies on their side, might not get the treatment that they need, because they can't afford it or access it because it's not validated by a code. And so I think there are certain, definitely some social justice implications to the presence of it within the DSM.

Steve Martorano 
I wouldn't expect either of us to have a guess about how it's gonna work out. But it occurs to me and I wonder how you feel that two things might result. If it were to wind up in the DSM. One is that, as we said, the healthcare system would be there in cases where people needed it, to treat this. And secondly, if the climate is so bad, the medical establishment says it's resulting in mood behavior that's destructive to people. Maybe it'll be another piece of evidence, a big piece of evidence, that this is a serious issue. I mean, you think that might be an important benefit to actually identifying it as a disorder?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
I mean, I think that's one of many pathways and certainly increases sort of the credibility, the validation of all of the things that we've been talking about for a while. I think there are other pathways as well. And I think it's going to become really important that people can hear and understand the intensity of the mental health toll. You know, on par with some of the other experiences that we're going to have. So it's definitely a pathway. And I'm hoping that we can do a lot of other good work to just really bring credibility to this aspect.

Steve Martorano 
Would you tell us what exactly the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America is and what you do?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah, absolutely. We're a community of mental health professionals. Who are...our mission is to educate other therapists to help people become climate aware, and their clinical practice and our research and our teaching and the training of clinicians. And so it's really spread the word about the impact on mental health, that climate change is having in our communities and in our therapy rooms.

Steve Martorano 
You came to my attention through a directory that the alliance has set up, because when I first read about climate anxiety being potentially treatable, I had all the questions and I thought, well, how to find some clinician, some therapist who's treating people, and they are surprised to find several in my neighborhood, as a matter of fac. I'm in Philadelphia. So have you ever treated anyone who came to you because of climate anxiety?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah, I actually have and at the time, it was more of sort of a secondary thing that they came for. So I haven't heard anybody...I had not had anybody until fairly recently when I became a member of the Directory, contact me specifically for that. But I've worked with a lot of particularly college-age students who are wrestling with that just as a natural part of examining their world and looking at their future. So I've worked with a lot of college students who have had climate anxiety as part of their presenting issues.

Steve Martorano 
Listen, the stigma attached to mental health is...mental health problems are, you know, well documented. And one of the more tragic aspects of that is that people, when it comes to mood disorders are inclined to say, man up, you know, suck it up. What are you kidding? And dismiss it as a real problem. So tell me when somebody, a young person's case, comes to see you. What are they presenting? What? What are some of the characteristics of climate anxiety?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah. Well, in the case of the people that I've worked with, and again, I've worked a lot with college students is they're encountering things within their classrooms, and they're hearing about things, and they're doing the hard work to really understand issues, but then they're projecting it onto their own future. And they're realizing like, it's my future, it's compromised. It's my future where people have not sort of followed through on what they needed to in order to make sure I had choices and options going ahead, and the responsibility is gonna fall on my shoulders to do something about it. And so there...one of the big things out of the Hickman Study that came out this fall was a realization that children and youth are experiencing climate anxiety in a really different way than adults are, and that there's sort of their sort of brand, or they're the nuances of climate anxiety has a betrayal component to it. Where there were systems and people that have come for decades before them, who didn't do what they needed to do to ensure themselves, their safe future. And so whether I'm working with students one on one in a counseling session, or whether I'm working with them in a classroom doing sort of a guest speaker thing about climate anxiety, that theme is really prevalent.

Steve Martorano 
To think that young people are consciously or unconsciously processing this as a betrayal, adults. Because I know growing up when my children were very young, you couldn't go to a grammar school or a middle school, where there wasn't some presentation by the kids of how much they love trees, or how important clean water is. And then to go 20 years in the future and have another set of young people go. That's not true. That's not true. What's the fear from a clinical standpoint that this is, we may be raising a generation of young people who are nihilists who figure what's the sense of doing anything?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Mm-hmm. Right now, 40% of the youth who are surveyed in the Hickman Study thought that humanity was doomed. 

Steve Martorano 
Forty percent?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yes. So that's a pretty substantial number. And yet, I also think it hasn't tipped the scale yet into the majority think humanity is doomed. I do think that it's a message to all of us who are in the older generations, to realize the sense of betrayal that they're feeling, and make sure that we're doing what we can to demonstrate that we're in like that we are invested, we're in, we want to be part of the solution. We have their backs, but also we're taking the front steps as well. Because I think one of the things that college students are talking about it quite a bit is, and now this is on our shoulders. I mean, I've been astonishingly impressed with the youth advocates in the climate movement. I mean, they just blow your mind. They're so incredible. And we can't let that be a reassurance because we can't say like, "Wow, these youth are so impressive. They'll fix it." Because that's part of the betrayal. Like we can't let their strength let ourselves off the hook. And so I think part of this betrayal is whenever you're working with that as a variable, you know, older generations, parents, educators, community leaders have to equally step up and say, "You're right, you know, the ball was dropped in a number of ways, and we're back. And you don't have to take the lead. We'll be right there with you."

Steve Martorano 
As long as we're able. That's a great picture of what the situation is. You know, in one sense, every gener...not every generation, but many generations have their cross to bear. I'm sure that the greatest generation, that we all know, when they were born in the 20s, first quarter of the 20th century, when they were born, for the most part. They never asked to have to deal with a crushing worldwide economic collapse, and then a rise of fascism, and a world war. They didn't ask for that. But they rose to the occasion. I take it that you are similarly hopeful that we have a bunch of young people that understand that they got to do it too.

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah, I think so too. And I'm definitely in sort of the both and category of I have tremendous faith in them. I mean, I'm in awe constantly of their capacity. And I think it's important that in other generations that we look and say like our job isn't finished just because they're they have the capacity.

Steve Martorano 
Right, we're not handing it off, right?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
It's all yours! Like no are saying like "Okay, you're right." The ball was dropped, people didn't look or take seriously soon enough And so let's do this together, you know until you've gotten to the point where like, we're not here anymore.

Steve Martorano 
Does the denial by a lot of very important people of climate change is a reality and must contribute mightily to the anxiety young people feel. You know, we just have former President Trump the other day saying it's a hoax. And he's not alone in believing it's a hoax. How do you counsel young people when they run into that?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
You know, I always think about sort of the stages of change in therapy. If people haven't sort of entered into the stages have changed at all. I don't want to say I dismiss them, because that's too strong. But I really am interested in the people who are in a sort of like a pre-contemplation like, I'm thinking about this, I'm curious, I'm open, I haven't shut the door on this as an issue. And so when I'm working with youth -- when I'm talking to students at JMU, that's where I am. It's like, who are the people that have the door cracked? Who are the people that are at least willing to entertain this idea? Because the people who have slammed the door say, "This is a hoax, this isn't true." They aren't our team. They aren't the people who are going to help make the changes. When they're ready to sort of crack the door and be open. Like those are the people who give me hope. Even if they're not completely on board not prepared to do something, or have their own defense mechanisms. They're still kind of there and reachable and could be part of the solution. But people have closed the door on or in straight-up climate denial.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, the choice is stark. You can be part of the solution Or you can be part of the problem. 

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
We have to decide what group we belong to, and then get into it. 

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah, And where do you want to put your energy to, because I've definitely quite a few colleagues who will sort of say the opposite, like they're willing to engage with kind of anybody at anytime, because they don't see anyone beyond hope. And I agree, like, nobody's beyond hope. But my choice of energy is to sort of being in a sort of the arena with the people who are at least willing to have a conversation. And I think, you know, for a lot of youth, for a lot of our students, for a lot of young people like my nieces. It's like, okay, who are the people around you who are open? Even if it's a little bit because there are people who are very close. There are people who are deniers, there are people who are like a complete counter to the solutions that we need. And where do you want your energy to go?

Steve Martorano 
What do you tell is a clinician, now let's get back to putting your clinician's hat back on. When do people come in to see you with? Pardon me, you know, your garden variety, mood disorders? I'm sure you take them through steps where well, this mood disorder is causing you to behave this way. Perhaps you should try changing some of these things. In order to alleviate some of the anxiety. You mentioned. Stages of Change. Yeah. Tell me about that. Yeah, well,

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah, well, in stages of change is there are several models and stages of change. But it basically says like, if you almost think about like getting on a Ferris Wheel, like unless you're in line, at the Ferris Wheel the changes are in your arena. If you're still like kind of way over there going, I see that there's a Ferris Wheel over there, but I'm not, I'm a roller coaster kind of girl. So the stages of changes, I'm at least...at least in line thinking that I could get on this Ferris Wheel and, you know, stages of change accounts for that entire process of imagining a little bit of it as being something either interesting, doable or possible. It also accounts for this space where you sort of slide back and again, as you'll see stages have changed a lot in the addiction literature, which so it accounts for relapse as part of recovery. So stages of change will say like, I'm in line on the Ferris Wheel, I'm willing to get on the Ferris Wheel, I'm sort of taking the ride. But there could be a point where I'm like, this was a terrible idea I need to get off of here. And or it's terrifying, or I don't want any part of it. So keeping the stages of change in mind is all about where are you in this process? Where are you in examining your issue? Where are you unwilling to kind of pull the pieces apart? Take a good look. Take the ride. How can you sort of show compassion and understanding for yourself when you do step off, slide back, get afraid, regroup. That's how I look at that.

Steve Martorano 
Among the groups that are anxious and troubled, what's the breakdown of men to women?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
That's a good question. I actually haven't seen that I've seen more sort of generationally. You know, in therapy, we know that for the most part, women tend to come to therapy more frequently than men. And so it also seems like in our therapy rooms, we're going to have more women talking about these issues than we are men. So I would say that most of us clinicians are encountering more women than men.

Steve Martorano 
Have you ever had the opportunity to give a parent advice when a young child comes in and says, "Mom, Dad, just is there going to be a world? They see fires, they see you know, earthquakes. If you had the occasion to counsel anybody about how to talk to your children about something like that

Dr. Debbie Sturm
I have, I actually recently had a mom of an eight-year-old contact me about doing therapy with her child, she asked specifically, what are some things that I can do on my end that helped my daughter, I don't want to tell her like, it's not to worry, because she actually has something to worry about. And I talked to her a lot about sort of age-appropriate, honest, true conversations. It goes back to that betrayal word again. Because our younger generations are feeling a sense of betrayal or powerlessness or helplessness, the most significant thing we can do is offer them honesty, transparency, openness, and also keep it at an age-appropriate level. And so would I pull out some of these documentaries and share them with my eight-year-old? Maybe not? Because sometimes I'm not sure I'm ready to watch all of them. But you know, asking your childlike, what are you learning in school? What are the things that are coming up for you? What are you afraid of? Let's talk about those things. Let's look some things up together. Like to be really honest with your children, I think is critical.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. Is it helpful as a parent to keep in mind and convey to the child that as bad as this may be one of you or your friends or your group may figure it out. 

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
You may be the one that figures it out. It's important to tell them that, right?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
I think it's amazing, honestly, I think that it is my personal opinion and I also hold that. One of my favorite terms that I've encountered and all of this work is "radical hope." One of the aspects of it that sticks for me, is the fact that we've solved great problems. But we've always had the period of time where we thought we couldn't, or we didn't know if it was possible, or we had no idea who or how or when. But we've solved great problems. And so for me, radical hope is looking squarely in seriously and importantly, at the intensity of the problem. Don't look away, like really look at it. But also remember, we have done things, and there are people doing amazing things. We can't get into it cherry-picking like all the good stuff so that we feel better about the bad stuff. But it is a matter of like holding both.

Steve Martorano 
One of the things that actually depresses me now that I've got a psychologist in front of me, I'll tell you is, I mean, I can handle most of everything else about climate change. I know, I think I know how serious it is. But when I hear people who I assume know what they're talking about, say aren't many, but some of them that it's already too late. 

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 
That's a crushing blow. Should scientists be saying things like that?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Um, so should they? I think it's a both end. I mean, there are definitely scientists who have vantage points where they feel like it's too late. And I honor that, I mean, I truly do. I also think that there's a sort of psychological aspect to the experiences scientists have had for years -- long before we've been having the conversation about the psychological effect of it. I find that incredibly depressing, too, because I worry about how that shuts down hope and ingenuity and creativity in people who might be on the fence.

Steve Martorano 
Right and it fosters the what's the...what's the point attitude. What's the point of the whole thing? That's, I think that's the most critical thing we can take away from our conversation you and I is that the problem is huge. Getting worse, but there's ignoring it. And again, I'm back to this other thing. I'm with you on this one. We don't know what 8-10-15-20 year old out there isn't sitting on a revolutionary idea. 

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
Or can mobilize a force that can change things. We just we just don't know. Jesse Jackson used to be famous for saying "Keep hope alive." And I guess that's where we are with this. I guess this is an interesting position you are in. You counsel people on this issue from a mental health perspective, it is not officially a mental health disorder. And I guess you're in a strange spot where you counsel it as though it is and hope that he doesn't ever become that. Right? So that we can marshal all those forces that we're going to need. You know, on that note, with regard to people who are having mental health issues, however, they manifest themselves, and want to talk to a clinician there them does is that what the climate psychology alliance is all about people getting referred to them? And they'll tell you where to talk to somebody?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Yeah, absolutely. We have a directory, and you can search the directory for climate aware therapists in your state. Right now, across the country there's no ability for therapists of any kind to work across state lines. So you would definitely need to find somebody within your state. But you know, with COVID, we've also learned to be pretty adept at telehealth. And so if you can find somebody within your state, you can get the support that you need. 

Steve Martorano 
And would you advise anybody who is maybe thinking, "Oh, I'm making too much of this." To not do that, not ignore it?

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Don't ignore it. Yeah, I think there's like a there's a fair mental health statement overall. But I think in the realm of the climate change, it could be easy to have somebody say like, that's not really a thing that you're in thearpy for. And as a therapist, I'm saying that is a thing. Like whatever is like stirring inside of you is a thing to bring the therapy in, we're here to be supportive of that.

Steve Martorano 
We will put the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America's link on the Behavioral Corner website. Debbie, thanks so much. It's a big, big topic, we had just scratched the surface. And we would love to have you back in the near future.

Dr. Debbie Sturm 
Anytime. I love this conversation has been a pleasure. Thanks so much.

Steve Martorano 
You're gonna read and hear a lot more about mental health and climate change going forward. We're glad we could bring a little bit today. Don't forget Behavioral Corner. You know, Apple Podcasts wherever you get your podcasts, we'd love for you to like us. Follow us on Instagram and all those other places.

Synergy Health Programs 
Millions of Americans are negatively affected daily by their mental health. Retreat has served the community for over ten years, offering comprehensive mental health programming through our mental health division, Synergy Health Programs. To learn more about Synergy, please reach out today at 855-802-6600. 

The Behavioral Corner 
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