The Behavioral Corner 

Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano. And this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us, as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner, please hang around a while. 

Steve Martorano 

Hey, everybody, what's up? Steve Martorano with you here on the Behavioral Corner, you know how the deal is, we stake our claim to this little intersection. We call it the Behavioral Corner. It's an interesting spot, we run into all kinds of people, most of whom are here to tell us their story because it has something to do with the way they've behaved and how that's affected their life. But it's a bigger story. We try to get stories about things people are talking about things that they're doing that affect our behavioral health. Because the way we behave, winds up to a great extent shaping the way we feel spiritually, emotionally. You know, the whole thing. It's the Behavioral Corner, we're really lucky, again, so basically coming out of the bodega across the street -- guess who I bumped into? a sort of an old pal. And I'll tell you the story had a fella by the name of AJ Daulerio. Before I get AJ on the air with this now, just a little background for you. AJ Daulerio is really like Icarus, who, you know, flew high. And some people say too high. And just like the Icarus story, he crashed and burned, he there's no way to no other way to put it. His tribulations occurred. This is what's fascinating at the intersection of something old and something new. The new thing was new media. The old thing was an old law, the First Amendment, and the subsequent collision that occurred resulted in this monumental lawsuit, which destroyed businesses, reputations, and left AJ himself personally in the hole for millions of dollars. Let me repeat that millions of dollars. And I think he'll tell you when he had like, a couple of 100 bucks in his pocket at the moment that we haven't even gotten into the role that Hulk Hogan plays in this. Or somebody by the name of Bubba the Love Sponge. He can't make this stuff up, right? Anyway. Look, it's true. We know this, that there's no good time to undergo a personal calamity. Ha's woes were even more difficult because they were occurring against the backdrop of him trying to get sober. Not a good time to try that. But you got to try it. When do you get to try it? So that's the kind of big picture we have AJ with us now to discuss on the corner. The details of this story, and I'm telling you it is a hell of a story about wreck and ruin and the road back. AJ Daulerio. Thanks for joining us. 

AJ Daulerio 

Steve, that intro made me-- I was like, man, I'm interested in hearing that story.

Steve Martorano 

So real quick, you start out writing in Philadelphia. La Salle graduate. You want to be a writer. You're going to get your eyes on New York. You wrote in Philadelphia for some time with distinction, but of course, any writer worth his salt is looking up I 95 at the Apple going to New York, that's where I want to go. You get there and in rapid succession find yourself really in the catbird seat, the dawn of new media, writing for a company called Gawker. Seven websites, who by the way, before they crashed and burned, were doing something like a quarter-billion web pages. Okay, so it's a big deal. AJ worked for one of those websites. In fact, he was the boss. Deadspin. AJ, tell us about Deadspin.

AJ Daulerio 

Sure, just to walk back a little bit, just like I first went to New York in 99. And then went back to Philadelphia, worked at Philadelphia Magazine for a year, and then did not -- I'd seen New York already. And I went back to Philadelphia and Philadelphia didn't seem like it was going to be a good place for me. So I went back and then I started at Deadspin, and Deadspin, you know, at the time, when I got there was probably one of the most beloved sports blogs. And it was run by my very good friend Will Leitch. for about three years. He was going on to greener pastures at New York Magazine. I at that time was a full-time employee, but not an editor. I had put my hat in the ring for the job and, you know, 13 other people had to decline the job before that my ultimate boss, Nick Denton, decided he wanted to have me there. And I still was, was kind of on a trial run for my first three months. It was myself and a man named Clay Travis, who was actually just there to be managing editor who went on to dark and scary things. But it was one of those moments where I knew that this was my chance to really kind of build a career the way I wanted to build a career because I wasn't necessarily into sports, but I was into chaos. And I was into being, you know, theatrical, and you know, humor and humorous essays were really kind of just what I wanted to write about. I kind of cartwheel through journalism. You know, journalism was a little bit of my background, but I'm not a capital JJ school person by any stretch of the imagination. But you know, what I was always good at when I was a reporter, was getting people to tell me stuff, they wouldn't tell anybody else. That was a skill that I had. And that was I tried to use that a Deadspin early on. I mean, we were, we were doing straight reported stories, little ones, you know, obviously, but was original content. And in a, in a landscape that was blogging was more, you know, takes on various linking to other people's stuff. So yeah, I had some success with that for the first couple of years. And then, you know, I decided to, here's the, here's the thing, just as much as that job was probably a job that most people covered it, who were in the blogging sphere, especially the sports blogging, community. I hated sports blogs. I hated the sports blog community. I hated feeling like I had to participate and be part of this fraternity because I didn't want to be part of it.

Steve Martorano 

So you have something in common with Buzz Bissinger?

AJ Daulerio 

 Yes. And, and we, we, you know, cross paths, I think, you know, later in my tenure there. But I just did not want to play a game that everyone else was playing. Here's the thing. It was just, I think there is this perception in legacy media that everyone that was working for a blog was just a disgruntled, want to be journalists...

Steve Martorano 

The kid in the basement. And we know that we know the cliche, yeah, a kid in the basement. You know, the Rupert Pupkin of New Media, I get it, man, I bet you I can see you saying, you know what, I'll do this but here's what I'm really about. I'm really about breaking things. Yeah, literally and figuratively. And boy, am I lucky, I was born at the moment when a giant technology has emerged, that is, in large part dedicated to exactly that anybody has a voice and can break anything they want.

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah, and I think that I developed a really well-earned reputation for not giving a crap about playing by the inverted pyramid journalism roles, a viewer which, you know, three sources, don't pay for stuff, don't pay for information. There was no off the record in my, in my, you know, the transactional thing that I had, but I, I had this one moment that I, you know, just briefly and because you're kind of an old school media guy, you'll appreciate this, you know, there was a story about Josh Hamilton, who as you know, at the time play for the Rangers and was a great comeback story because of his dealing with addiction and substance misuse for most of his life, and, you know, had become the feel-good story of, really the sporting world. And I had gotten a tip that he had relapsed. So I checked around with it because I used to do this where I would call the beat writers at the local papers. And I remember calling someone at the Austin American Statesman, about this tip about Josh Hamilton and he was very condescending to me nevertheless than he was ultimately like, you know, we're around these guys all the time. Josh relapsed it would be a huge story and he said something like there was also something at the time with like Tony Romo, was dating Jessica Simpson. So this guy said to me right off the bat, he's like I got nothing to worry about Tony Romo and Jessica Simpson, comma, serious journalists something along those lines, right? Cut to you know, I get the photos. I run them on Deadspin, it's a huge story. I get a call from that reporter back and he's like, AJ, and it's so and so for the Austin American statesman. While you really got a great story here. I just wanted to follow up with some questions. And I said, I'm sorry, I've got nothing about Tony Romo and Jessica Simpson. So, that was my attitude at that point. Right? And I and I think that was the Icarus moment for me, right? Well, I felt invincible.

Steve Martorano 

I'm not going to defend you because, as you know, some of your behavior, it's not a great deal of it is indefensible. But I will say this in your, in your defense, I guess is that again, you didn't make any bones about who you were and what you wanted to do. And there was this vehicle. This is what I mentioned at the beginning, the intersection of new media and old laws in the new media, all those rules you wanted to break didn't exist. In fact, they were counterproductive when you think about it, in the long term. So you were the arsonist who someone gave a can of gasoline to get a book of matches? Yes. And then you proceeded to burn the world down if you could. All those stories you talked about, were not showing up in the New York Post. No paragon of virtue itself, or the new york times they were different kinds of journalism

AJ Daulerio 

They would steal my stuff.

Steve Martorano 

You guys made so much noise that people ultimately had to pay attention right. Now again, what happened is that this juggernaut of new media that you are master of in New York City, at a moment in time, when the world was opening up to you now you were a star intersects with the First Amendment. And the clash that resulted was the lawsuit that involved Gawker Media and the story you guys did on hole collagens sexual adventures with Bubba the Love Sponge's wife and his best friend, you know, what's what her best friends for example, and so the tape exists of, of Hulk and Mrs. Baba, and you get the tape. Deadspin's got the tape 

AJ Daulerio 

No Gawker got the tape. I had been promoted, so to speak to the editor of the flagships at Gawker in 2006. 

Steve Martorano 

Right, right, right, right. 

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah, well, cuz I quit Deadspin. And I had said to my boss, that, you know, I, I will probably be one of these guys that comes back to Gawker, because they're everybody who leaves usually comes back to the nest because it's like no other place on earth to work. And at the time, there's an editor of Gawker named Remy Stern. And when I told my boss that I was going to leave and take another job, he said, Well, what if I give you Gawker now, and I said, Well, Remy's, the editor, and he went and fired him on the spot and gave me the job. That was the type of man I was working for.

Steve Martorano 

The sort of place you were working for. Anyway. So now at Gawker. Gawker has the tape. You go through, what 15 minutes or so of soul searching about whether this is a story or not. But somehow or another, you run with it.

AJ Daulerio 

It was one of those situations where I was like, Can I not run with this more than do I want to 

Steve Martorano 

The context that you were operating in this was the Pentagon Papers. Oh, yeah it may be illegal to publish the Pentagon Papers, but we're in the business of revealing stuff that's hidden. 

AJ Daulerio 

Here's a little larger context for that story was that you know, the existence of the tape had already been out in the world. So at that point, you're saying just like, does that make it newsworthy? Right, because clearly, other people had spoken about this alleged tape that existed between Hulk Hogan and someone else was making the rounds. Now Hulk Hogan it also at that point, spoken publicly about that he had no idea who this could be right that he was running through a lot of ladies and while he was single, and in the middle of his divorce, so he has no idea who this could be. And it's probably not real. The whole time. In the background, knowing full well that this is probably the tape of him and his best friend, Bubba the Love Sponge, you know, who was at that time sharing his wife with not only Hulk Hogan, but others.

Steve Martorano 

It was a tag team match.

AJ Daulerio 

Wow, Steve. Steve, come on. Yeah, I mean, but yeah, the thing was, there wasn't a question about its newsworthiness. Right. There was a question about whether or not I should when I had to take Should I run portions of the tape. Now also in the background, I am doing all of the legwork, so to speak about a kind of just figuring out how this happened to begin with and kind of get verification on. Was this actually Bubba's wife, you know, what was going on? And was really planning on doing a huge story about the Tampa celebrity swinger scene. That was kind of the larger context that I was looking for. So this little Hulk Hogan part was just a minor act in that whole entire play, right? 

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, yeah. 

Steve Martorano 

But I needed to start it so I wanted to start with all the way this the Hulk Hogan snippet, just to prove that this tape exists, that he was with his best friend's wife, etc. And then I did a whole very florid essay about the state of celebrity sex tapes at that point to accompany it. The lawyer had basically told me, here's the line. It's the minute and seven seconds that you know, we can show, you can't go past that line. I was fine with that. So the lawyers signed off on that right on how much I could put up there. And didn't think anything of it. It wasn't this blockbuster story. For us. It was not, it became a blockbuster story once Hulk started to make the rounds and do a publicity tour for another wrestling league. It was on Howard Stern talking about it for around two weeks, right. And then it became bigger as time went on, and then he said...

Steve Martorano 

Yes, I'm glad you did that. And I know, incidentally, your efforts just now, to give context to what went on. And your mindset at the moment is important to you. It's important to you for a lot of reasons, certainly has to do with your continuing sobriety. I understand that. So forgive me if I speed things up, though. Having let you know, lay that out. Yeah, it was not.

AJ Daulerio 

It was not for it's not to protect myself, obviously.

Steve Martorano 

I know, I know that is important. You know, it's...

AJ Daulerio 

It's the boring part. It's the boring part, but...

Steve Martorano 

It's not boring. It's important. It's just long. It's long. Anyway, so here's what happens. There's a monumental lawsuit. The details of which are another whole story that has to do with a multi-billionaire tech guy who has got a grudge against a Jays guy Denton, that has to do with homosexuality and outing each other. And he is secretly bankrolling the case against Gawker using the Hogan tape when the dust settles. Gawker is out of business. Nick Denton is like is witness protection, who knows where he is. And AJ, unbelievably, finds himself not only with not working. Reputation in tatters, but personally liable for millions of dollars...

AJ Daulerio 

115 million

Steve Martorano 

 115 million -- it's laughable. Until you think about why they sue somebody who clearly doesn't have $150 million. They're beating you over the head, they're gonna make sure what they're suing you for is the rest of your life. Right. So when you read about Rudy Giuliani just got sued for 1.3 billion. What they're saying to him is Happy Trails Rudy, this is the end of it for you. You're never coming up with that kind of money. He finds himself in exactly that spot. Now, in something off-the-air, you and I will, you know, explain to me how your lawyers lost this case because I can't for the life of me figure out how they messed this up. But anyway, that's what happened. And it's a big deal. It's a big, awful deal. AJ, his life was in tatters. And or how many weeks before the trial? Did you decide it was time to clean up your personal life?

AJ Daulerio 

All right, well, I'm gonna try not to go long on this. So August of 2015, is when I first made an attempt to get sober, but I also just like, want to put it in the context that, you know, you're asking about how the lawyers lost this. I, you know, nobody at Gawker, including myself, who was the defendant ever thought that this thing would ever get to trial? Right? Because these sort of cases are kind of settled out of court, right?

Steve Martorano 

Yes. Because one of the litigants doesn't have enough money to bankroll continuing to fight but your guy had money.

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah. Right. But it was also it also, you know, most people do not want to have sure if they're, if they're suing for emotional distress, and basically having a reputation tatters having this kind of air in the court of law is basically something most people wouldn't want to go through.

Steve Martorano 

Absolutely.

AJ Daulerio 

So I did not get sober because this trial was coming. Right. I was getting sober because I was a mess. Right? 

Steve Martorano 

Let me stop you right there because that's the point we have to make. And then I'll let you go as well. 

AJ Daulerio 

Sure. 

Steve Martorano 

Well, what's the old expression they used to say, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." There are a lot of people and I'm not one of them, who see somebody get jammed up and immediately go to rehab. Yeah. And they view that as well. That's a career decision or a legal decision. That's what that's about.

AJ Daulerio 

Right. 

Steve Martorano 

So, I think it's like, and I hope I don't get sued the Lindsay Lohan technique, she was sort of she would take...

AJ Daulerio 

Exhaustion. 

Steve Martorano 

Yes. On the way to the police station to get booked, she would rehab anyway, you're going to get sober before this debacle. But what was your life like in terms of substance abuse? What were you doing everything? 

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah, I mean, I have, and I'll send you this after this. There is there's a photo of my coffee table. At the time when I was running my own media company. At this point, I'd taken some investment money from, you know, some heavy hitters who were trying to help me launch my own version of Gawker at a local level. But, you know, I was very much into Adderall, Xanax, partying all night. Blow. I like to describe it as like I liked I love to go up and sideways, was how I needed to function. Right. That was what I was into. And, you know, it got to the point where I probably used about two hours on a Wednesday, maybe at most. And I didn't know it had gotten at that point, you know, I mean, it's one of those things where I could not fathom stopping, I'd gone to detox in August of 2015, to get off the Xanax, which I went for nine days. And it was like, I'd run a marathon, right. I was so pleased with myself that I had made it nine days, and a detox center, and then came out and then within a month was hitting it hard again.

Steve Martorano 

That trip to detox. Was that...where did that come from in your head? Was it? Did you wake up one morning and go? Well, okay, I'm running down the highway on this stuff. Yeah, you got to get on top of it. 

AJ Daulerio 

It was really at a point where I was doing...my ankles were starting to swell. Every morning, I was pissing the bed a lot. I was throwing up, I was dirty. I was...my tongue was black all the time. I mean, it was just, I was starting to fall apart physically. And I knew I needed to get a handle on this. And then I had to, you know, in the industry that we're in, and especially in New York, there are a lot of people in recovery. I had a friend of mine who had recommended this person to talk to was kind of like a fixer for, you know, substance misuse. And she had put me in a detox center after I'd called her, I had the insurance to cover it. So I went thinking really that I was getting a tune-up, right, was not there to have a complete overhaul. I was really trying to get back to my life where I could drink and, and smoke pot, like a normal person.

Steve Martorano 

You just wanted to be a functioning crazy person.

AJ Daulerio 

I thought it was functioning. I thought I was functioning very well, I thought I was at a super high level. And so and I, you know, one of the things that I started to get into late in life, I'm 42 -- 41 years old, obviously. So hitting it hard, and I got super into acid at that time. Really? Yeah, cuz I thought that was really the creative jolt I needed. Like I was, I was dicking around with all this other stuff. But I couldn't really access, you know, the creative energy that I wanted, because I was so strung out most of the time. So I started doing a lot of acid.

Steve Martorano 

Do you think -- did you think at some point? Because you're, you know, your writer, your creative guy? Yeah. Are you using drugs to tap into a deeper vein of creativity? Or what were you - you know?

AJ Daulerio 

No, I was tapping in 

Steve Martorano 

You just wanted to get high. 

AJ Daulerio 

I just wanted to feel good. You know, I mean, I think that just like, you know, one of the things that I recognize once I did get sober was the fact that I mean, I was just like, man, there's this saying that I think is probably originated in 12 steps that I mean, I heard one person say that they were a pretty good drunk, they were just a terrible, sober person. Right? That really aligns with me, I could not function without being able to do without being uncomfortable without being feeling like a weirdo without feeling suicidal without feeling, you know, mania, I mean, all of those things are something that I had for most of my life. And, you know, drugs and alcohol, especially, and, frankly, ego and public success were the bombs for that.

Steve Martorano 

So you get into this detox for nine days. And you think well, I did it, right? 

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah, I did and I did not do it. I relapsed very, very hard about a month later. And, you know, it was one of those things where I went, I remember going back to my, my, my regular bar, which is in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. I went there on Friday at four o'clock and I said I'm taking a break from my sobriety today. And, you know, that was like a Friday at four and it became Tuesday morning real quick. Like it just did not know how I got where I was. I mean, just, you know, waking up with the wrong people at the wrong places and just, you know, all of the stuff that I thought I had, I didn't want to be In that position, right, I went there, hoping that I could have a couple of beers and leave. And I could not write. It was not in me to do that anymore. I could not go half-assed about this. Right? I went hard.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah. And it was that point where you went, Okay, quit, you know, quit fucking around here. Let's fix this. 

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah.

Steve Martorano 

Did you go to a residential facility? 

AJ Daulerio 

I did, I went to a place in Singer Island, Florida called Harp, which no longer exists because it was one of those places in Florida That was a, you know, an insurance scam.

Steve Martorano 

You should have called me, man. I know the good people in Florida anyway. Yeah, so how long were you in there?

AJ Daulerio 

50 days. Around that. So, I did it pretty hard. I mean, I went from around mid-October and got out on December 1, right.

Steve Martorano 

In retrospect, when you're in there for those 50 days, in retrospect, looking back, wasn't working for you there, or were you just going through the motions, or what was your frame of mind when you read rehab that time?

AJ Daulerio 

No, I was working for me. I loved rehab. I mean, it was just like, you know, summer camp for wash-ups, basically. I mean, and I fit in, right?

Steve Martorano 

Yeah.

AJ Daulerio 

And I started to get into 12 steps there. I really started to get into meditation, all those things. They were working for me, right. And, you know, the camaraderie there was great. But once I got out, that's when it hit me that just like, Okay, this is where I need to really work hard here. Because I mean, in rehab, I mean, you're institutionalist.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I've interviewed so so many, many people. And I always say the same thing. Every story about substance abuse and recovery is the same, except they're different. Right. And one of the things that's regrettable about multiple trips in and out of rehab, is that some people go in, and not that you did, but some people go in just for what you said, I need a break. I didn't get strong so I can go back out and run art again. That's exactly right.

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah, right. Yeah, I still fantasize about that sometimes. Right. You know, my life is wonderful right now. But I mean, that was, I mean, and as far as convalescence goes, I mean, it's, it's kind of great. 

Steve Martorano 

And it is great. 

AJ Daulerio 

And, you know, I mean, I just discovered in sobriety, more than anything. It's just an I was talking, I had a meeting before this. And I was talking about, you know, I had so much help. professionally and personally getting helped out of a ditch, right? A pretty significant one. But I love that ditch. You know, I feel much better there. Most time. I feel more comfortable there. Right. And that's one of those things that I have to kind of manage every single day.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, right. Those feel right cuz you could feel this is fascinating. You feel estranged from your true self. And so far as the true self is where you felt best in that dark tunnel. In that trough. HunterThompson talked about the music business being a warning, a long, dark trough where good men go to die. You felt good down there. Right? 

AJ Daulerio 

That seems like my natural element. I mean, that's where I can thrive. Right? I mean, that's, that's it's that's where I feel like I belong. These are my people. I mean, I think that's what's great about recovery is made a lot of people whose thing Yeah, me too, right. And it's crazy that I still think that way because my life is so good. So much better. I have a wife and three children and my career is thriving. But yeah, man, I still have that button. Right?

Steve Martorano 

Yep. I mean, anybody, anybody in what I like to refer to as an outsider, as authentic recovery, or it's an ongoing process if they kid you that it's easy, or they're telling you it's they don't even think about it anymore. They're probably not true. This stuff is hard. This stuff is hard man. So again, the process of your sobriety which is about to coincide with having to give depositions and go into it what's the timeframe there your house sober? How long are you sober before you're sitting in the dock?

AJ Daulerio 

It's it's funny to tell this to people who are in recovery with it's just I was, I got out December 1, I was in court, February 28. That was like the first day of, pre-trial stuff. And I thought I was fit as a fiddle, too. So I mean, and dipping into AA at that point, and just kind of going through the motions a little bit. And also not knowing what I was walking into at all. I mean, and I don't mean this to kind of slag on the lawyers, but I think it's obvious if you've read anything about the case, was not very prepared for what was to come, right.

Steve Martorano 

I told you if we had more time, I'd go to great lengths of how the hell did they lose this case? It's just incredible. But anyway, anybody who knows anything about recovery is true. But anyway, I will tell you that you presently have no chance of succeeding, if you don't get at least and it's the minimum 90 days, and really sort of intense treatment and then halfway house sober living. No one recommends leaving treatment and going to a multi-million dollar lawsuit. 

AJ Daulerio 

It's like having reconstructive knee surgery and then joining a roller derby league. 

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Only only only with pain involved. A real, real pain. So here's my question without, you know, dredging this stuff up again, because this is something people need to know. Did you at any point during the ordeal, relapse?

AJ Daulerio 

Not during the trial. But after the trial when after when the trial had kind of become very, very public. And I had become, you know, the punching bag for all of Gawker Media since and deserve. Rightly. So I'm not going to like to say that I was not deserving of that sort of treatment. But I was kind of frozen in this weird place where I couldn't earn any money. I had to wait for all this stuff to kind of I had to wait for the lawyers to basically settle something and get me out of this. But the whole time there's this bigger machine behind this, this grinding lawfare. And that started to wear me down. So I started to act out. Right. I slipped is I think what they call it in the business. Right? And not anything cool. By the way. You know, I would I started taking when I when I was at a medicine cabinet. And there were pills there. I would take a couple. I started buying cough syrup, and drinking cough syrup because I thought that was allowed, right? I was just thinking of them. Yeah. And start doing poppers -- amyl nitrate was sort of my thing for a little while. The whole time thinking just like, Well, I'm not doing anything fun. This is sober. Right? And, and also at the time, it was just like, frankly, I was just like, well, I can't really commit to anything with my recovery until this is over. Right? You know. And there's that saying in 12 steps, which is just like anything you put before your recovery, you're going to lose it. And yeah, I was losing.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna catch up to you shortly cuz you're doing some great stuff. Now I want to talk about your newsletters and everything. People listening who are and you hear from them all the time, who are dealing with their sobriety, and their long term sobriety also echoes those sentiments about worrying about slipping about those old feelings. Can you describe what keeps you sober right now? 

AJ Daulerio 

The thing that has helped me the most, is the 12 steps. Meditation is huge for me. I mean, I do it every single day, therapy and, you know, really earnest therapy, because I never did that before. And, and medication, frankly. I mean, that's what keeps me going and upright, and service. However, we call that I'm very, very active in the 12 step community in multiple programs too.

Steve Martorano 

Is it fair at this point, I know that service and community are central to people's successful sobriety, particularly service? Is it fair to say that your dedication to service now is antithetical to who you were during the battle days?

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah, of course, it is. Yeah. I mean, I, I, and I, and I discussed that all the time, where it's just -- I wouldn't show up for anybody. I didn't treat anything. Seriously. I didn't treat my relationship seriously. That's what friends girlfriends, I didn't treat my job. Seriously. I never opened the mail. You know, I was basically just like one of those guys that even when I was making a lot of money, I was still broke all the time. You know, I mean, it was just, I was just there to exist, and fall, you know, so I mean, I was that other people were not a priority for me, right? Ever. I mean, it now

Steve Martorano 

Except as some means to an end in some way, they could be

AJ Daulerio 

Transactional relationships were what I was all about. And yeah, figuring that part out, was just learning how to listen learning how to be consistent. Learning how to do those little baby steps. You know, when people get you to go AA for a little while and people talk about you know, I made my bed today, I went to the dentist and everybody like loses their mind. Like it's the greatest thing in the world. I get that. It is a huge step in the right direction was for me that I once I started listening to other people and showing up for other people, that's what I need to do.

Steve Martorano 

Anybody doesn't make their own bed. They got a problem, to begin with. I mean, who gets back to bed in an unmade bed? Yeah, I couldn't sleep anyway.

AJ Daulerio 

I always I would sleep on my laundry all the time. I was the king of wet towels. Right? Well, you know...

Steve Martorano 

It's also not uncommon to not know what time zone you're falling asleep in. I mean, you know, you're capable of just falling asleep in a different city. Listen, I said, these stories are all the same but different years and certainly colorful. If nothing else, and you've come out the other side you have, I know you take responsibility for your behavior, and you continue to take responsibility for your behavior. So we can put that part of AJ's history behind us and find out what is going on with a newsletter I know you're very passionate about called the Small Bow. Tell us about the Small Bow.

AJ Daulerio 

Sure. I mean, the Small Bow is something that it's I began with a journalism grant actually funny enough, around two years ago, which I received from a company called Civil which was a cryptocurrency company. And I started it with the mindset that when I first got out of rehab, and I was looking for articles to read, and because I was pretty savvy about the internet, I figured I'd know where to go, I couldn't find any place that wasn't advertising. rehabs, again, so and I wanted something deeper than that. And I began to find a couple of things that I loved. So I said, you know, if I ever get the opportunity to do this type of work that I was doing before, again, I'd like to start something like this, and I got that opportunity. So it's, I ran a site for a couple of years, my grant money ran out, I pivoted to a newsletter, I hate to use that word, sorry for everybody for using that. But the newsletter then became a kind of a personal essay type. So it just became focused on me, which I wouldn't didn't want to do initially. Because I think that that gets very boring. But you know, I'm starting to do in a, you know, as you've done with your show, is kind of just like, look at all facets of the mental illness and recovery and where that falls in this huge spectrum of basically being a better person. You know, most of the small bow is about permits, how to figure out not to be in a hole anymore, right? Because that doesn't go away. You know, those are the things that I need to work on all the time. And obviously, the intersection of my former, you know, life as a blogger, it's come up all the time. And because, you know, that was part of my recovery was basically recovering from that recovering from being a persona and trying to be a person. You know, that's, that's part of this. And it's been great because I've connected to more people than I ever had through Deadspin or Gawker. 

Steve Martorano 

It's great. Maybe not in sheer numbers, but certainly an impact. Because you're sort of like connecting now with people that you need, and they need to have a connection with. I've read it, it's terrific. I mean, there's great stuff on the site. You survived by subscription, right? Is that how it works?

AJ Daulerio 

Yeah, it's a Patreon at this point, but I also, you know, it's helped my freelance career tremendously. And, you know, I just, I signed a deal with iHeart Radio to kind of turns parts of the small bow into a podcast, actually. So I know, I've just begun production on that supposed to start in the spring. We've done a couple of episodes, so far. I'm very green at it. But yeah, I mean, this is my life now. Right. So I mean, I and I'm very happy about it. So I hope it lasts for a long time.

Steve Martorano 

No, that's terrific. You're going to be as successful as you want to be. Because you proved that once and unfortunately, drove the car into the ditch. You'll be just as successful as you need to be. AJ, thanks so much. I've admired your work for a long time, and again, continued success with the family and in the recovery and the sobriety. Thanks, man. 

AJ Daulerio 

Good. Thank you, Steve.

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