Steve Martorano 
Hey everybody, how are you doing? Steve Martorano here. A moment before we get into the nitty-gritty here. Now I gotta remind you again. You will have our eternal gratitude if you just click that subscription button. We need your support in that fashion. Hit the button, and subscribe. We'll love you long time here on the Behavioral Corner

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around a while. 

Steve Martorano 

Hi, everybody, welcome to the Behavioral Corner it's me again, Steve Martorano. You know what I do actually hang on a corner. And if you stay in one place long enough, interesting people will come by. That's what we do at the Behavioral Corner. Broadly, we talk about behavioral health. So that makes this, as I like to say, a podcast about everything. Because everything pretty much affects our behavioral health. It is brought to you by our great partners in this Retreat Behavioral Health. And you will find out more about them a little bit later. Early in the proceedings earlier on. We visited this topic of relationships that don't work out -- the fallout from them and the price paid, and how one can survive what is now pretty popularly referred to as "toxic relationships." The last time we did this a while back that resonated with a lot of people, a lot of women obviously, and today we're going to revisit that topic. Our guest who joins us I'll introduce her in a second can only be described as having a kind of fairy tale story of a relationship that turned into an absolute nightmare. To kill that metaphor once and for all. This is like what happens when Humpty Dumpty falls off the wall and what it takes to put those pieces back together again. Happily, she has that story for us. Carol is a very successful advertising executive. She has crawled out from under just an awful relationship. She's here to tell us about that, how she survived it, and maybe how you can benefit from her story. Carol , thanks for joining us on the Corner. Appreciate it.

Carol

Thanks for having me. I'm very flattered.

Steve Martorano 

We appreciate your time. Did I get that right? Did you have a fairytale relationship?

Carol

I did. I definitely did.

Steve Martorano 

It was one that lasted a quarter century. I know that's hard to believe. This is a 25-year story. So tell us a bit about yourself. You obviously were a child when you met this man. So why don't you... 

Carol

Well, I don't know about that.

Steve Martorano 

So tell us about the story of this relationship, and how it started.

Carol

Well, I married my high school boyfriend after college. And it literally lasted minutes. But we had two children. We were just way too young. I don't fault him at all. It just didn't work out. And I knew that before we even got married, even though we dated forever. So I had two children that were very young. And then I met a man, and he pretty much swept me off my feet. I was in a bad way, because of what happened to me. And he helped me bounce back, and he had four children. So we eventually moved in together, and we raised six children. He was a very wealthy man. And I lived a very charmed life. And I used to call it the lifestyles of the rich and famous because it was just the kids in the house. We had everything and money was never an issue.

Steve Martorano 

This is not a relationship, a new start... I mean, I guess young people always fantasize about the man of their dream or the girl of their dream. Did you have those kinds of notions when you were young and looking to get together and form a life? Did you see yourself living this kind of fabulous lifestyle?

Carol

Now, you know, I came from a, I guess, middle-class family on Long Island, and my expectations were just to be like my family. You know, it wasn't over the top. You know, I fell into this. It wasn't anything I was looking for. 

Steve Martorano 

I don't want to dwell on the rich and fabulous part of this so that people can understand it doesn't make any toxic relationship worse or better. But it does set the stage here. When you say, you had a fairytale life with the house and the money and everything. You're not talking about, you know, upper middle class. You're talking about...

Carol

The lifestyle of the rich and famous.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, you were like the one percenters there. Right? Okay, so what...so what could possibly go wrong, Caryl? Tell us about it.

Carol

You know from the beginning. I've learned over the years now I have to go with my gut. And I had a very difficult time understanding how a man could leave his four children. I mean, how bad could life be, and he's leaving these kids? It bothered me, but I fell into this whole thing. And we were a family. We never got married. He would never marry me. But he always said he loved me. And we had this perfect life. Why does it again?

Steve Martorano 

Admittedly, I was surprised when we talk before the interview about the length of this relationship without marriage. In hindsight, should that have been a cautionary warning for you that he might have had a commitment problem there?

Carol

You know, when the kids were little, we had gone to a fair, and Jennifer went and bought me a magnet. And she said, "This is my dad." And it said, control freak.

Steve Martorano 

How old was she when she gave you this?

Carol

Jenny? Ten.

Steve Martorano 

Really? 

Carol

And I kind of laughed at it. But looking back, I tried to get married, and I didn't push it because I was manipulated into thinking that we both had gotten married and why rock the boat? My family, my brothers are attorneys, constantly said, "Carol, if you're not going to get married, at least get something in writing." So we would make appointments with one of my brothers, and it would never happen. So, unfortunately, I believed in true love. I really did. I don't think he was in love now, but back then, I really believed that he loved me forever. I mean, that's what everybody wants to believe.

Steve Martorano 

And, of course. There was a period of time when I assume both of us were in relationships where the notion of "Oh, the marriage certificate is so bourgeois, and what's the point? And it doesn't change anything." So that was the perfect time to go, "No, we don't need to get married." So I can certainly understand that. Was he older than you? Or were you the same age?

Carol

He wasn't. He was older than me. But I do want to say that I played the part of a married woman.

Steve Martorano 

Right, for all practical purposes...

Carol

He bought me a beautiful wedding band. It was, you know, ridiculous. And it was part of the whole thing. I used his name. I hyphenated it, but we didn't have the paper.

Steve Martorano 

Okay. Before the fracture becomes irrevocable, what were some of the other things that, again, in hindsight, you now can look back and go, beginning with a 10-year-old saying, "My dad's a control freak."

Carol

Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 

For people listening who are in relationships that are not feeling right. What other signs are you now aware of that were there?

Carol

I never had a credit card. I never had anything to do with money. If I needed money, I got a wad of money. I didn't have a checking account. I wasn't on the deed of the house when I should have been. You know, when I was a kid, I bought a house with a friend. So I had money, not as much as him. But I gave him the money that I had. My brothers wanted me to be on the deed. He didn't want me to be on the deed because then the mortgage would have shown that we weren't married. And he didn't want that. So he played his part as well.

Steve Martorano 

So, that sounds like, again, a control issue. He wanted to be in the catbird seat here. What other kinds of signs that this thing was going toxic? Did he exhibit that you saw?

Carol

Honestly, that was it. It was the money, the control of the money. The controlling of my entire life. I had to weigh a certain amount on my hair had to be a certain color. When I got dressed, I would, and because we went out a lot, I would walk into the room and say How do I look? And he would say, you know, he would critique me, and half the time, I would go and change. I really was under his thumb. When I think about it, now I still can't believe that I live that life. I mean, down to my hair color down to my weight if I ate something...if I had a cookie in my mouth, he would say, "Are you sure you want to eat that cookie?"

Steve Martorano 

What responsibility now? Do you think you bear on letting this thing continue for so long? Because that's an extraordinary amount of hoops, you seem to have to jump through. It must take a while for you to come to terms with your role in that, right?

Carol 

I take responsibility for it 100%. I allowed somebody to control me, and before, I didn't think I was that way, but he swept me off my feet. That's all I can say. And he had an answer for everything. I wanted a credit card, but he had that Amex, the black one or whatever. And he said it's too much money. You know, what do we need it for? I'm always giving you money. And I'd be like, because "let's talk about the finances." But I never...it was just I got swept off my feet. And I'm repeating myself, but I take responsibility for not listening to my family and listening to my gut. Listening to my gut, I...I...that's something I learned.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah. You mentioned that once or twice already. So what was your gut telling you? I mean, yeah, it's annoying when he didn't like the dress you had on, or yeah, it was strange that he would say put the cookie down and a nuisance that you had to ask for money all the time. When you say the instinct, you felt what was the instinct telling you.

Carol

I didn't have one during the relationship. I had it at the beginning. And all those other things, I rolled with it because he loved me. 

Steve Martorano 

Yeah.

Carol

It's like, it's like physical abuse. You keep on going back because you think they love you. And this was emotional abuse. But I didn't know it at the time I was living it. I grew up with him, and I just thought this was the norm., you know?

Steve Martorano 

I'm guessing he also organizes your social life around his control issues. Your friends...your friends were his friends, right?

Carol

Yes. And, you know, it was this crowd of people that we were like, the poor ones of them. You know, I mean, it was... I lost all my friends from, you know, college and high school and kids, I grew up...people I grew up with.

Steve Martorano 

How did they fall away? How did they feel just because you no longer had time? For them?

Carol

Oh, no, no, no, because he wouldn't socialize with them. He would not. It was just not an issue. And I lost everybody in my past. Everyone.

Steve Martorano 

When that process was going on, where you...were you regretful for that? Or was it just something? Well, we've changed, we've moved on? How are you reacting to losing, you know, friends you've had for years?

Carol

I guess it was a choice between the six kids and him and my life, not the money, but just the life that I grew into. I'm sure at the time. I wasn't happy. But there was no arguing or, you know, it just...this is just the way things happened.

Steve Martorano 

You know, I'm very...very interested in that. Seem to I don't want to be badgering you here now. But again, when we've talked about toxic relationships and what I've read about some of them, you make a great analogy there. The abuse, which didn't occur for you, physical abuse, people always wonder, "Well, why do they keep going back? Why would they keep being engaged in this?" And there are a number of reasons. Economics is one. No matter what your financial situation is, you can't leave if you can't support yourself. But there's something else going on for you. It sounds like stripping away all the money and the glamour and all that. You had a family that you were trying to...

Carol

And there were six kids, and it was just, there was no step. There was no, it was just amazing. And he actually adopted my two because his father...their father was, you know, he was gone. So legally, he adopted them. We went to court. My kids were interviewed. The other kids accepted them like family, and we were a family. There was no...it was. It was amazing. It was great. It was three girls and three boys. What else could you want?

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, again, as we said, this is a story of a fairy tale. Yeah, that explodes. Our guest is Carol, she is sharing with us, and we are grateful that she's willing to do this. The story of relationships that just turn awful. And the fall from love, the place you found yourself, is pretty dramatic. What was the precipitating event? What was the...we mentioned? You've mentioned that it wasn't physical abuse. It was psychological abuse. It was a control issue. Well, there was no, I know, a precipitating event when the wheels came off. Tell us about that.

Carol

It's a very involved story, but he got caught cheating with my sister-in-law.

Steve Martorano 

With your sister-in-law?

Carol

Yes. His...his brother had passed away. I started to care for her because it was so devastating. I did above and beyond for her, but that's what family does. And my daughter caught them. The kids wanted me to forgive him. We went for therapy. I tried. He got caught again. He couldn't live without her.

Steve Martorano 

With the sister-in-law? How old was your daughter when she discovered this affair?

Carol

She probably... My kids were in college. They were older.

Steve Martorano 

Okay. It must have been an interesting conversation. Did you deny it? Were you in denial when she told you this? Do you think she was...

Carol

I think I was in denial before because it appeared afterward, everybody knew, or everyone thought it. But nobody told me, and I was the... I was the one that never said... All the kids told me they thought it. My own mom -- everyone assumed it or thought it, but they, I guess they couldn't believe it either until it was in black and white.

Steve Martorano 

I imagine that the emotions someone feels in a situation like this are all over the highway. You must feel well, obviously hurt. Betrayed. But did you feel at all dumb?

Carol

I felt dumb...not dumb. But I felt I didn't try. I gave too much of my life to this woman. But if it wasn't her, it may have been somebody else. Or maybe it was somebody before. I did what I knew was the right thing to do for my family. And it was above and beyond. But um, I don't regret the way I treated people or I acted. No.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah. We know that if you had been married, there would be a pretty standard procedure that followed a breakup like this would be lawyers and divorce papers signed and property divided. None of that happened, did it?

Carol

No, unfortunately, no. But that being said, Everything happens for a reason. And I've never been happier. And we did go to court. There was a crack in New York State, and my brother found a lawyer that knew about this crack, and it's involved. And the judge agreed to hear the case because we had enough proof. It's never gone to trial. I guess they know lawyers. So the judge brought us into her chambers, me and my family and the lawyer, and said, "I can't try the case. Because if you lose, you're gonna lose everything. So let me try to negotiate." 

Steve Martorano 

A settlement?

Carol

I said, Yes, so you could at least get on with your life. So she asked us what aren't me what I wanted as a settlement. And we thought about it a lot. I asked for a million dollars because I knew he could write it right then in there. I would have left...I would have left everything because at this point, what was I going to? There wasn't anything I wanted? 

Steve Martorano 

Sure. 

Carol

So he came back with an offer of $12,000. Because it was $1,000 for a month for one year, and he said he took care of me long enough.

Steve Martorano 

Maybe as she showed me when that event was that it's so insulting and shocking occurs where he just says, I don't care about 25 years. I don't care about the children I adopted. I don't care about any of this. Here's what I owe you, as it were. Did you go, "How did I miss who this guy really is?" Did you ask yourself that?

Carol

No, I think I really know it. Looking back again, I probably knew all these things. But I was...I was in it.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, love is blind. Let me ask you something. And then I want to talk about it because I know you're not here just to tell us a sad story. But you're here to tell us the skills you've developed, the people you've met, and the, you know, the techniques you now use to get your life restarted. But at that moment, when this thing has blown up, and he's so in-transient about all that, did you look back and go? "What am I missing? I must have been bewildered. What am I missing year? Why is this so vindictive? Why is he like that?" I mean, I guess I'm asking you if you've imagined anything that might have been different. Let's throw out the affair. Anything that might have been different that had you done that could have saved you from this position you were in? Or do you think it was inevitable?

Carol

I think it was that way. I think he was protecting himself financially. Just in...I mean, 25 years is a long time, but he must have had it in his head, just in case...just in case I'm not giving her money as I gave to my ex. He gave his ex-wife a lot of money. You know, and for kids, can you imagine? And I'm guessing that's the reason he's a very, very bright man, and everything is calculated. Everything is thought out.

Steve Martorano 

Obviously, he had this entire thing set up. I'm saying obviously, correct me if I'm wrong. So no matter how long it lasted or what circumstances were going on, he had an escape hatch.

Carol

Yeah, and being so controlling and he controlled what was his. What he believed was his.

Steve Martorano 

Alright, so it's shattering, and you left, your circumstances changed dramatically. You went from a palatial lifestyle to a pretty bare-bones situation. You took your children with you. And he just showed the other two around that work?

Carol

And well, they were older. And I have to say that all six are very successful and they're happy. So we did do a good job with that. That's one thing that came out of it. They were older, so none of them were living there. I mean, they all had bedrooms if they wanted to come home that the house was big enough. But when we were in court, after the judge got the $12,000, whatever. His lawyer told the judge that I was a tenant in the house, and he wanted me evicted. I had two weeks to move out. He took my car. I mean, I had nothing zero...zero...zero. I was moving my stuff out, and I broke my leg on top of everything else. I found affordable housing. It's a very beautiful place. But the town has to give a certain amount back, I guess, to the community, and I was one of the fortunate ones that I lived in this brand new apartment. It was 1200 square feet, but it's affordable. So I went from the highest to the government or the town helping me live. And I was very lucky. By accident, I got an interview for a job for that I didn't have the talent or the skills, or I didn't have anything to even get the interview. But the person that it was a headhunter, she realized it after she set the interview up. She called me. She goes, "Look, and you had part-time jobs. I thought you had a full-time job. And you had years and years of experience." And I'm like, "But I went out and bought a suit like I'm already." So she said, "Well, you need to nail this." Long story short, I met by accident with the senior vice president of the northeast of this company. And I didn't realize who he was. So I was really just myself. The interview lasted three hours. And I honestly thought he was just a guy. If he was wearing shorts and a T-shirt. They were on an off-site. After three hours, I'm like, "Look. I got dogs. I gotta go home." Like this is wasting my time. I knew it was a waste. The next day, I got a phone call, saying that he had found something in me and he wanted to give me an opportunity. I didn't think I even had a chance.

Steve Martorano 

How long ago was that? 

Carol

That was four years ago,

Steve Martorano 

in that period of time, I know, and you have rebuilt your life, you're very successful. You're making...you're making very good money. 

Carol

Very good. Yeah.

Steve Martorano 

So it would seem, for all practical purposes, that you landed on your feet. But it's not exactly like that. What are the issues that you now or you've had since the catastrophe of the relationship that you're still dealing with?

Carol

First of all, I didn't know how to work, and I just didn't have the capacity...even though I worked after college. A lot of time had gone by, and this was a life-changing experience besides the fact that I was living in an apartment on the second floor with a broken leg and three dogs that my ex didn't want. It was just a nightmare. I didn't have any furniture. I had a mattress. And I had to figure out how to get out of this hole. And I kept on saying to myself, Caryl, you can either lay down and die, or you can fight through this. And my family was there to support me. And they got me the apartment, and they paid for the first couple of months of rent, and they got me a rental car. But then they said, "Caryl, look, you chose this. Pull up your big panties and figure it out." My mom's like, you could stay with me for a couple of weeks. I guess they saw that I could do this on my own. They never let me fall to the ground, but they were not giving it to me.

Steve Martorano 

I know that for many women, that story does not resonate because they don't have that kind of support system to catch them. But it doesn't change the fact that what you described, though, even with the help of your family, is one of the three things I wanted to ask you about in terms of recovering from a toxic relationship. What if any therapy have you employed or support groups, and what are you working on? I know you mentioned in the pre-interview that you, and again if I'm wrong, tell me. You still have issues with me. You still can't tell me about that.

Carol

Well, I found a therapist that fell into my insurance because I couldn't afford it. And I really believed that he guided me to recreate myself. I really had to. I wasn't who I was for 25 years. I had to figure out who I was all over again. I had to find my strong points. And because I didn't have anybody criticizing me anymore, this was me, and I was on my own. He really helped me, and I'm a big fan of therapy. Whether you have to go to a group place, I just happen to find this man. And we made a punch list of things that I needed to do. And one was to stop crying. It sounds crazy. But that's all I did. So I focused on my job. And I needed to get out of this hole that I was in. I couldn't cry anymore over the fact that I didn't have enough money to live.

Steve Martorano 

Right. What other holes were you in? I mean, yeah, the economic thing is right in your face in his first has to be. What other sort of emotional holes were you in?

Carol

I lost everything in my life. I lost all my friends that I had for years and years and years. They cut me off the minute we split up, I they said the friendship had died. I had about, you know, 15 friends, you know, we had a lot of fun. I mean, what else were we going to do? And, you know, we went on trips together. Obviously, they weren't my friends. But my whole rug was pulled out. My stepchildren who? I don't want to say they were on my side. But they didn't talk to him. When we went to court, apparently, he threatened them that if they didn't stay on his side, they'd be cut off from all the money. Now, he says that to my children. And it affected my daughter quite a bit. My son was like, and there's just no way. Like, he was just like, you know, this my mom. I saw this for years. And so I lost everything. I went into an apartment with a mattress. A mattress?!? Can you imagine?

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, I mean, I certainly can. You know, as I said, I've heard these stories. They're all you know, it's almost always the same story only. They're always different. Yours has a lot of gloss to it. 

Carol

Yeah. 

Steve Martorano 

But at the center of it, it's the same story. People who come together, and for a multitude of reasons, the relationship grows poisonous and destructive, and there's a lot of pain and hardship. But we look at you now. I hope people are watching this as well. You look like you've bounced back. Big time. 

Carol

It wasn't easy. 

Steve Martorano 

Oh, I know. Doesn't sound easy. Therapy helped. Are you in any support groups that you go to now?

Carol

I tried. But I leaned on my therapists a lot. I think as long as you have one source.

Steve Martorano 

Right. 

Carol

I honestly I would say any kind of therapy, any kind of you need to talk, you need to talk to somebody, whether it's a group, whether it's a professional, but you need help, you can't do this alone. You can't. I'm still in therapy. I would say my life is 90% perfect for me. I walk around every day with a smile. People ask me why I smile so much. And I'm truly proud and happy of what I've become. I never have a care in the world other than I have issues with relationships. And that's what we're working on now.

Steve Martorano 

Okay, so let me ask you that, and I want to end on this note because obviously, you haven't joined an abbey. You're not...you're not a...you're not a monk. You want to be out there, but you say you have issues. Are they basically issues of trust? What's the problem?

Carol 

Yeah, I think everybody's lying to me. You can say anything....

Steve Martorano 

When you say "everybody," you mean men, don't you?

Carol

Men. I'm sorry. You know, I'm very defensive. I don't trust anyone. I believe everybody's out to hurt me. It's awful. It's awful. I don't have an open heart. I don't have an open mind. I don't know how I can be so successful in every other part of my life. I made new friends. I can't tell you how successful I am with my job. The money is ridiculous. But I worked very hard for it. And it doesn't mean anything to me. Other than I did this, I was successful.

Steve Martorano 

It's kind of an ironic twist on your problem that you reconstructed basically a secure financial life when you had nothing after having it all. And yet, you know, there's a big hole that you can't fill. You must be working on this. I want you to sum it up here. What advice would you give to women or men who are listening about what to look for to make sure this doesn't happen to you? And then with regard to where you are now. How you're going to get back to trusting men again?

Carol

I think the first thing is we're all pretty savvy. We just have to figure it out. And you need to listen to your...your heart and your gut. And what I mean is, if you feel that something isn't right for you, you need to figure out what that is. Because I truly believe if I listened to not the love part, but the...the intelligent part, let's say, or the part that says, Carol look at this further. I think everybody has that in them. And it's a battle zone. You need to really say, "Is this going to be long term okay?" Are you going to be okay with what might happen? Or the way somebody's acting or...

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, it's a great insight. I mean, if something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't right. And the sooner you confront that, we talk about it in sort of metaphysical terms, my gut, my instinct, as though it's not a real thing. It's a real thing. If it feels bad, address it because it's only going to get worse.

Carol

Right? And I did not; I rolled with it. And I think that everybody needs to analyze. Even if you're in a good relationship, there are things that your instincts tell you that maybe you need to fix or maybe you need to talk to that your partner about. You need to help yourself. You need to find it within yourself and become the best without those instincts that are there.

Steve Martorano 

Yeah, a great piece of advice. Are you dating now, Carol? Do you date or do you not doing what...

Carol

My therapist says I should keep on doing it. And I find a lot of pain in it. I, but he said it's like sales because that's what I know. I try. I think each time, it gets a little better, and the relationship lasts a little longer. And I don't blame myself, which is an issue because of my past. And I got to keep on trying. It's like, you got to move forward, and you need help. You need to want to do it. You want to be proud of yourself. You don't do it for anybody else but yourself.

Steve Martorano 

No, that's great. That's great advice. Well, you know what he said? You got to, it's like sales. I get that. Except here, it looks like you're not the salesman. You're the customer. You're trying to sell yourself on the idea that you can be happy with another human being. Yeah, I have. I'm putting my money on you anyway.

Carol

So but if I don't find anybody, I'm okay with it. Truly...

Steve Martorano 

That's even better...

Carol

...that I become, this is my life. If somebody adds to it, fine. If they don't, I will be fine, and I will still be happy. So...

Steve Martorano 

That's a great place to be. That is a great place to be. Carol, thanks so much. 

Carol

Thank you. 

Steve Martorano 

We appreciate your candor. We hope we know people are gonna listen and go, "I like that." And maybe we'll...we'll cross paths again, back on the Corner sometime, and tell us what's up,

Carol

I can invite you to my wedding maybe.

Steve Martorano 

Thanks so much. Take care, everybody. See you next time on the Behavioral Corner.

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