The Behavioral Corner 
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens.

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around a while. 

Steve Martorano 
Hi, everybody. Welcome again to the Behavioral Corner. To me, your favorite guy hanging here, talking about everything, because that's what affects our behavioral health, everything. We are brought to you with the great cooperation of our partners, Retreat Behavioral Health, about what you will hear a little bit later. So we returned to an issue here on the Corner that we've, you know, sort of our bread and butter issue. It has to do with the problems associated with substance abuse disorders and mental illness. And I don't need to tell anybody who's familiar with any of this, you'd have to have lived in a cave to not know that both those things remain enormous problems in our society. And in a part of that problem. And perhaps the major part of that problem is that of the sufferers of these two disorders, people just don't get enough help. It's available, apparently. I mean, it is available. I know it's available, but they don't...they don't get it, and they don't reach it treatment that they desperately need it. So that end, we've invited our two guests who have dedicated their majority of their professional and adult lives to addressing just that problem. Dr. Allen Kleinschmidt is with us. He is the founder of the organization we're going to be talking about, which is recovery for Americans now, and his co-board member and wife as a matter of fact, and the Honorable Katie Sullivan, just briefly their backgrounds. Dr. Kleinschmidt is among many other things, former Deputy Director of the White House Office of the National Drug Control Policy under the Trump administration. And Katie has a distinguished career. She's now a retired judge, but she's had a long career in the law, dedicated to making a recovery a reality for people. Both are in very long-term successful sobriety. Whew. I need a break. Hi, folks, thanks for joining us on the corner. I'll begin with you, Allen. What inspired you to form this foundation?

Dr. Art Kleinschmidt 
Well, most people I'm close with referring to me as Art. So but...but it's okay, you could just kind of go there. But what inspired me is my own personal story, my own personal journey, and that of my wife. I was actually in the opioid crisis. I mean, I have a lot of drug and alcohol use history myself, but I have firsthand knowledge, firsthand experience of what the opioid crisis looked like in the early days because I was sort of very involved with it from the pill mills and everything else. I'm from New Orleans. So at the time that I quit using I got into recovery, and New Orleans was experiencing just an amazing sort of outburst of all these pain management clinics that were just pumping pharmaceutical drugs into the community. So I got sober and in, lived in different sober living and worked in a recovery community. And then I started the I was a licensed clinician, I became treating people in the treatment centers, multiple levels of care. So when I kind of got from there, into Washington, DC, I was luckily got appointed, I saw that there's a huge gap of people who aren't getting their needs met or weren't getting the proper type of treatment. And if you look at what's going on right now, in today's age, fentanyl in is one of the leading killers of people who shouldn't be in the prime of their lives might 18 to like 49 -- but don't have the age got exactly right. But that group is actually suffering in, you know, actually, fatalities and the way it's going right now severe substance use disorder is extremely life-threatening and in it you add in the powerful fentanyl and fentanyl analogs. You see what we're seeing.

Steve Martorano 
Fentanyl is a game-changer here. We'll get into it a little deeper. Katie, what about your background? You also had a substance abuse disorder. Is that how you guys met? By the way did you meet and get treatment?

Katie Sullivan 
We did. My husband actually had started a...he was helping a not-for-profit stand-up but an outpatient program for juveniles. And they had sent a marketing letter out signed by him Art Kleinschmidt as a name, you kind of remember, and so I was a judge and as part of the marketing, you know, probably 100 or more letters went out in our community, and I got it at work and thought, "Wow, this program is really needed. These kids are being overlooked. You know, everyone's just acting like juvenile behavior. It's no big deal." And so I set it aside to do a follow-up. And that night Art was the speaker at a speaker meeting that I went to in Carbondale. And so when he came down -- looking so handsome -- he came down, and I said, "Hey, you wrote me a letter." And he said, "I wrote a lot of people that letter." So we had lunch about, I don't know, two weeks later, and then a date. And then we were married eight months after that, and we've been happily married for 14 years.

Steve Martorano 
Kismet. You know, it's...I mean, I've had so many situations that talk to so many people, not specifically with your story, but whose life while, you know, going down a dark path, when they find their way out of that not only becomes a little better, it becomes a lot better. And...and then certainly, you two probably would not have met had you not been on some pretty disastrous journeys, early on. So...

Katie Sullivan 
We just went on a big, long vacation, and when...and we were kind of laughing about it and just saying, I mean, Art has...we both have over 20 years of sobriety at this point. And I said, "Can you imagine if we were drinking?" So alcohol was my, you know, drug of choice, if you will, it was just a terrifically loud, obnoxious drunk with a law degree. There's nothing worse, I promise you, but I...

Steve Martorano 
Your husband does not disagree with that description.

Katie Sullivan 
He didn't know me, then. He didn't know me, then. He can imagine it.

Dr. Art Kleinschmidt 
I actually met her in AA.

Steve Martorano 
Okay.

Katie Sullivan 
But in any event, I think we talked about on this vacation how different it would be if we were drinking, you know, for not just the money and the expense, but the experience. I said, "Can you imagine if the two of us were boozing it up on these two beautiful, you know, relaxing, meditative weeks that we took as a reset for ourselves in our marriage?" And I mean, you know, just unthinkable. Unthinkable, so...

Steve Martorano 
But I mean, it's sort of the great insight that people in successful recovery get to, and each time they express it to me, it's always as though they're saying it for the first time because it's so...so much better than it used to be. So yeah, I understand that completely. So if one of the foundation because there's treatment available, people aren't getting to it, you guys at the foundation refer to that as the "treatment gap." So let's talk about that, Art. When you talk about that, let's break it down. What is the gap? How large and what are some of the barriers to treatment? 

Dr. Art Kleinschmidt 
Well, there's actually, you know, a number of barriers to treatment. So we're trying to smooth over at least one of them and smooth over the financial barrier to treatment. When you look at like Medicaid, and that type of assistance, maybe even third-party payers insurance, a lot of times it's not enough treatment to people with actually sorting need to actually achieve the outcomes that they really want, which is actually a happy fulfilling life in recovery. So that's in the treatment gap, basically, refers to the people with a need of treatment, say, people with a severe substance use disorder versus those who are actually receiving services. So generally, it's been about 89% of people who need treatment don't receive it. Now, the numbers start to vary a little bit when you start adding it to a diagnosis of mental illness, severe mental illness, incorporated with severe substance use disorders. So that it varies, but when you look at it, the gap from people who need services and are getting services is rather stark, and it hasn't really, the needle really hasn't moved. So what we're thinking is we want others, you're just talking about sobriety, we want other people to experience the miracle of sobriety and the miracle of recovery. And so what we're designed to do is try to bring that miracle to as many people as we can.

Steve Martorano 
I don't know if you think it's the primary reason people don't get treatment, but it's certainly a major reason. And that's financial. There are other reasons. Treatment doesn't get to people that go beyond means, right?

Dr. Art Kleinschmidt 
Like number one, and people aren't talking about it as much. People don't always sort of want to quit right away. And that's actually one of the other ones, the other, they also sort of live in a state of denial. And I think it's sort of harder to get people from point A to point B from active addiction into treatment, whether still being enabled and supplied with certain drugs. And a lot of what's going on I see right now in the culture is actually enabling people to promote addiction as opposed to recovery, but that's one of the major ones. But in that's why, you know, I think we try to work with is a little bit better sort of an intervention type of plan to actually help people get from point A to point B, and that's, you know, my wife has worked in the criminal justice system. She designed her own drug court. So we're looking at those sorts have methods as well to kind of help people get from point A to point B.

Steve Martorano 
Katie, that's the perfect place to pivot to the judicial side of this thing. When I first became aware of how drug courts worked, I thought, well...well, it's about time. And I guess it's a diversion program, right? It's to keep people out of jail, and get them into treatment. Tell us how you...how you set off on that effort?

Katie Sullivan 
And just follow up on the last question a little bit. One of the things I think is how overwhelming it is for family and friends of those that are, you know, struggling with a severe substance use disorder, you know, if you type in addiction treatment, or substance abuse treatment, I mean, it's just overwhelming. And one of the things that we're trying to do through Recovery for America Now Foundation, and our website is to build a community. So you can come to our website in order to see what treatment centers we have partnered with, that are receiving our funds that will enable you then to get long-term care. Right? So it's also trying to, you know, making this attempt to centralize community. You have family members who are just at a loss on what to do, in terms of where can we go to try to get help, and we are providing those services as well. Drug courts are fantastic. For two years, I was on the bench. And you know, I was told that I...there were certain mandates and sentencing that people need to do to have no alcohol, no drug treatment, or no, no alcohol, no drug probation, they were sent out, and you'll go to jail if you drink or use these people were clearly addicts, alcoholics, they were struggling. And I thought this is absolutely ridiculous. Like, this is ridiculous. You're sending them out to the same DUI class that they've had. This is how it worked in Colorado. Minnesota, for instance, has a much better program where they put people in inpatient treatment at a second or third DUI. So they...that's not what happened in Colorado. You just go back to the same DUI classes that you took. I had one guy 10 times before. 10 DUIs and he had taken the same DUI classes 10 times. The only difference was, they would have to sit in the classes longer. So they would go through the same book like three times. Okay, this is insane, understood, it was insane, you know, knew about drug courts understood intervention did not have a supportive chief judge. He did not want to include rehabilitative courts in our system. So I did a workaround. We called it Alcohol Intensive Supervised Probation. I got a probation officer assigned to me called the defense part called the Public Defender called the prosecutor. They said, Sure, you can give it a shot with some long-term DUI offenders, multiple DUI offenders. So I started with the DUI court. It exploded. We had people from other counties asking to get in. We had other judges hearing about this, like, can I go to Judge Sullivan's court? I want help. We started to take drug court clients like more people with drug issues, not DUI issues. It is not recommended. It's not the best evidence. But we just thought anyone who needs help, we're going to take them. And we ended up splintering into two courts, which I ran both: A drug court and a DUI court. A multidisciplinary team is a very different way of looking at judging, you're not just sitting up there in a black robe. I did believe that defendants needed to understand that they were in a criminal court, and they stood at the podium. And we had sometimes very lengthy, very in-depth conversations once a week. And then we had a therapist, defense attorney, a prosecutor, a coordinator, a probation officer, and then a psychologist who joined us for people suffering from severe trauma, and that would start to come up, and we would have somewhere to put them -- send them for some help. So it was really a whole personal approach. We also had a deputy from the jail or actually the commander from the jail who sat on our court, so we could see does this person's behavior change when they go to jail. Are they just acting a particular way in front of me? It really was a community-based program, and it was awesome. We have a 79% graduation rate in one of the toughest programs in the state. I always used to tell them, "I love you enough to hold you accountable."

Steve Martorano 
Right. Make you notice that you're responsible for this behavior. Well, that's it's amazing what one, you know, one person who sees the problem from a different angle can accomplish it. Congratulations. I wonder, Art, what your experience working inside the system was like. What did you experience in terms of your deputy directorship that was beneficial to getting people treatment and was maybe a bureaucratic blockade? Tell me about the inside. Did it help? This government picks up enough. I guess what...

Dr. Art Kleinschmidt 
I would say it helped a lot. I'm very, you know, grateful to have the opportunity to serve. I started off as a senior advisor at SAMSA, which is a Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Administration. And then I was brought into the White House for Domestic Policy Council. And then, I served as Deputy Director at the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy. So I got to see this thing for multiple facets: A person in recovery, a person who did treatment for a long time, plus inside policy, making shops in the federal government, I, you know, I would think, it benefited me a lot to understand how these rules are being manufactured, or a lot of the guidelines get issued down. A lot of the people I've met, you know, they're all really sort of great people that I got to interact with within the federal government. I would say, like, one of the things that, you know, not a lot of them really haven't had a lot of the hands-on experience is actually treating a lot of treating clients working at a treatment center themselves, but they're all super, like, I'd say, very well-intentioned, but, you know, I think sometimes things get lost from like a policy perspective, and in reality, so, you know, I know the, you know, a lot of research, and then you also got to look at how it actually kind of manifests itself in reality. So if you look at a peer-reviewed study, and you can kind of look at that, a lot of times that...that's only like a piece of the story of what they're sort of examining at that moment. It doesn't tell the whole story of what's going on. And, you know, no, I think MAT and Suboxone is a great tools. But, you know, I've seen it abused so many times and people in my caseload. So, I mean, that's just like one example. I'm not saying it's not a valuable tool. But in and of itself, it's not a holy grail to cure. You know, I mean, you could kind of help people, I see it as a tool with a very much of usefulness. But you know, you do require, like to have monitoring around it and structure around it. 

Steve Martorano 
Well, if we've learned anything about this, that there are many paths to sobriety, and when people say, "Hey Steve, does this work?" Or "Hey, does that work?" and I go, "You know, it works for the people it works for." And that's the only...the only thing I've learned...

Dr. Art Kleinschmidt 
That's kind of like when I was, you know, a therapist, all the treatment plans I made were based on the individual characteristics of that individual person. You take their strengths, you know, in some of their obstacles or limitation, you start to kind of build upon that. So every person, you have to look at who they are. And then just like Katie just said, from a holistic sort of the point of view, you have to see the environment that they're interacting with, you got to see what you know, what their strengths are, what their core issues are, you start to try to treat those things as a whole. And then you build the person, hopefully back up. And now that's really why we started this because I believe I used to tell my clients a lot the rubber hits the road when you leave here. So we were very much like here's treatment, very, you know, strongly held that a recovery community actually needs to be sort of built around these sort of treatment centers. That's actually something that we really want to see and endorse.

Steve Martorano 
Art Kleinschmidt is our guest. He's the founder of the foundation Recovery for American Now. And co-board member Katie Sullivan, with us talking about that. A couple of things before we talk about an event you're going to be going to in a week or so, you talked about partnering up with treatment facilities. What do you guys look for in a partner in that regard?

Katie Sullivan 
So they have to meet the criteria. I ran the Department of Justice's grantmaking division, which was a bureau, the Office of Justice Programs. And, you know, here it was, they had one tiny program of $7 billion that I oversaw at DOJ was drug courts, and that was about $75 million. And I saw as to Art's point, you know, the way that the federal government and best evidence and best practices and things like that were going to bureaucracy, it was going to drug court coordinators and, and different bureaucratic, you know, setting up state, you know, things that are important to make sure that drug courts are functioning, you know, state oversight boards and things like that. People need treatment. Like the number one problem in our court was, you know, people had to pay for treatment. I shifted those grants to go toward testing, you know, like UAs in order to assist clients with UAs with treatment with things like that and move it away from some of the bureaucracy or bureaucratic priorities that were in there. So things like that happen not only through policy but also through grantmaking, which is where we also saw a gap. And that's where Recovery for American Now Foundation can step in. What do our treatment centers, you know, the criteria? The criteria are, is that they provide a continuum of care that includes peer recovery, you know, typically known as AA, NA, etc. It has to be part of the program. We understand it's not for everyone, but certainly, it is a tool that they should be availed of. We need jobs, training, and educational opportunities, and I think what Art can speak to even more, is soft skills. We call them life skills. You know, there's a lot of people who have come from really dire situations, they haven't been in a grocery store in a long time, you know, the run into the convenience store to grab something quickly, you know, when they're off a bender, or, you know, clean their house, how do you pay your bills? How do you set up electricity? How do you interact with people who answer the phone? I'm not trying to make these people sound like they're foolish. But when you come from, you know, such an isolating disease, and you're moving back into society, you really need to learn all of those things and do that in the safety of a rehabilitative community.

Steve Martorano 
We tell people this all the time when looking for treatment. They have to understand that it's in a facility that is telling you that this is a one-and-done kind of deal. That's not the right facility. Because recovery, as you two guys are evidence, is not a thing. It's a process. It's with lots of stuff over a very long period of time. So it's important to look for that. So I know that you are partnered up with, coincidentally, my partner Retreat Behavioral Health. And it's no coincidence. When we talk, we try to get on the same page. As you know, they are among the best out there-- checking all the boxes.

Dr. Art Kleinschmidt 
Yeah, they're fabulous. 

Steve Martorano 
They're really good. And I know there's going to be an event. Seventh of October, right?

Katie Sullivan 
Yes, sir. 

Steve Martorano 
Tell me about it.

Katie Sullivan 
Yeah, so Retreat Behavioral Health is one of our miracle sponsors. And we're very excited that they are hosting this event. They're on Worth Boulevard. Is that right?

Steve Martorano 
Yep. 

Katie Sullivan 
Worth Road in Palm Springs, right outside of Palm Beach, Florida, they are hosting our event. We're so excited. We are expecting about 250 people. If any of your listeners are interested, please contact us at info@recoveryforamerica.org. Again, it's info@recoveryforamerica.org. If you're interested in attending, Dr. Drew Pinsky, who became a very good friend of ours over the last five years. He and Art are extremely good friends and are totally on the same page with the recovery. He is the keynote speaker, he will be not only talking on the topic of the need for treatment and all of his expertise in this area, you will also be taking questions and answers. And we have a very exciting lineup of different people in the policy and addiction field space that will be speaking through the dinner just quick, you know, five minutes leading up to Dr. Drew. And this is obviously our big fundraiser for this particular year. Every dollar goes to scholarships to treatment centers. We are front -- my husband and I are have been absorbing all the administrative costs to run our not-for-profit. So everyone can be sure that their money will be going to treatment to help people really stay in treatment for the length of time that is diagnosis really needed to get them back on their feet to get them the miracle of recovery. So thank you to Retreat Behavioral Health. We also have another miracle-sponsored Deterra Systems. Deterra Systems sells drug disposal bags that are completely environmentally not only friendly but they are totally biodegradable. Other drug disposal bags actually leave little kernels of narcotics in them. So Deterra Systems is just fantastic. It's a great company. And they are all in on, you know, understanding the need for treatment.

Steve Martorano 
Well, we're...we're grateful for your time. We always want to help out if you're working with our partners who are good people, we know that you're good people and your intentions are great. So it's October 7. By the way, we will have all the information about RecoveryforAmerica.org on the Behavioral Corner website. as well as a link to all of their information about what they do in general and the event on the seventh in West Palm. Art Katie, thanks so much. 

Dr. Art Kleinschmidt 
Thank you.

Steve Martorano 
As you continue with this work, we hope you'll be able to join us again.

Katie Sullivan 
Thank you, Steve. I hope we see you on the seventh. Thank you.

Steve Martorano 
Thank you, guys.

Retreat Behavioral Health 
Retreat Behavioral Health has proudly been serving the community for over ten years. Here at Retreat, we believe in the power of connection and quality care. We offer comprehensive, holistic, and compassionate treatment from industry-leading experts. Call 855-802-6600 or visit us at www.retreatbehavioralhealth.com to begin your journey today. 

The Behavioral Corner 
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