A Dark Force: 20 Years with a Covert Narcissist

Ep. 130 Erin Riley Podcast Transcript

Steve Martorano 
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens.
 

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around a while.

Steve Martorano 
Hi, everybody, welcome to the Behavioral Corner. Me again, hanging here waiting for interesting people to cross our paths. We picked a great spot we got very lucky -- this is the most...this is the intersection of like really interesting people and me full of like dumb questions. Anyway. So Behavioral Corner, we talk about everything, because that's what affects our behavioral health. It's made possible by our great underwriting partners Retreat Behavioral Health. You'll find out more about them later. We're welcoming back to the program -- no stranger to the corner -- Erin Riley has been with us in the recent past. She joined us to tell us a story that I'll tell you right now gained a lot of interest on our podcast site because I think it is a bigger story or a more widely shared story than most people are willing to admit. And it has to do with an awful, awful 20-year relationship, marriage to a narcissist, which is a concept much in the news lately. So Erin was kind enough to be really candid with us about that and told us that story. It's an amazing story. Not a pretty one I might add. So we welcome her back. Now, on the occasion of another box, she has checked off her illustrious kind of showbiz or entertainment career. And that is her first book. Hi, Erin shows the book. It's called a Dark Force. 

Erin Riley 
Hello Steve. Here it is! This is called a "Not for resale copy." You can see the little bar across it. This is the first printed copy,

Steve Martorano 
"Not for resale." It's like the records we used to get the music business, right? For promotional use only." 

Erin Riley 
You mean the one we sold all the time.

Steve Martorano 
Exactly. The ones we just sold immediately. Yeah. Anyway, it's called A Dark Force: 20 Years with a Covert Narcissist. We congratulate Erin on the book, and we welcome her back to the program. You look terrific, kiddo. I'm glad. - and I only say that because your comment about me looking like I'm not half dead was kind and I wanted to return a favor. I get a lot of trouble when I comment on the way anybody looks. So I have to be careful. I know...I know you don't care. Anyway, the book is a great read. We will briefly discuss what goes on there. But it would be my wish and Erin's as well that you buy this book. Available on Amazon, right? And you can buy it a presale right now. Right, Erin?

Erin Riley 
Yes, that's correct. Right now you can pre-order the ebook, which has to be delivered to e-readers and iPads and things like that up until December 6. And that's the official release date. That's the day that you can purchase a paperback online and that all of the ebooks will be delivered to the e-readers and the purchasers. I'll be also recording an audio version next month that will be available in January.

Steve Martorano 
Oh, cool. Yeah. So it's a real deal. It's a real book, she's got it right there in her hand and nothing impresses me more than published authors. I really have a lot of respect for anybody that has a story to tell and the willingness to sit down there and get it on this case a computer screen. But let's begin there, okay? Because I want people to find out your story from reading your book. We'll delve into a little bit of it ahead. But why did you write this book, Erin?

Erin Riley 
I wrote this book, Steve, to figure out how did I get here? Like how did I get -- spend 20 years in a marriage and a relationship with someone who couldn't see me or hear me or make me feel validated? And why did I keep trying? What was it about me? You know, it can't just be that he's awful and I stay because I feel sorry for him and I don't want to hurt him. You know, where am I in this equation? It's not all about him. I have to look in the mirror and say "You know what happened to Erin here?" So I started journaling and it just keep...it kind of grew from there. And as I continued to write and I got a few people to read things I was writing and give me some good positive feedback and some direction about where to take it and things that they want to see and learn abou about how a person somehow maybe gets involved with somebody like this. 

Steve Martorano 
Yes.

Erin Riley 
That's why I figured it out...figured out me part of it.

Steve Martorano 
Did you journal as a young girl growing up? Did you keep a diary or any of that?

Erin Riley 
Oh, a little bit until my brother found it, and then no.

Steve Martorano 
right? That's usually the case. I just want to spend some time talking about your process and writing there is something very different about committing your thoughts and your experiences. In a writing form, because inherent in that is the notion that somebody's going to read this. "I want someone to read this." I mean, you can have that discussion in your head. And that's as far as it's gonna go. You'll have it with you. And that's good, that's fine. But it takes a certain amount of audacity, and I admire it, to write something and go, "I think people will read this." It's your hope that people read this, correct?

Erin Riley 
Of course, and are helped by it. But you know, narcissism, as we've talked about before, exists on a spectrum. And there is healthy narcissism, you know, so writing a book is, I think healthy narcissism. Yes, obviously, I have to have enough confidence in my ability to tell a story to tell it publicly, you know? And so that's hopefully what would be considered healthy narcissism.

Steve Martorano 
So you consider the book not only in an effort to tell your story and share it with others but also as a kind of therapeutic exercise for you as well, right?

Erin Riley 
Absolutely. I joke around sometimes, Steve, say, "I hope that someone who is in need of this book, it comes into their world, they start reading it, they recognize their own self in it, and they put it down and run." And they never even finish it. But I saved somebody because they see themselves in it. Because what I've learned about people who get involved in the narcissistic and controlling course of relationships is that there's so much commonality and the behaviors and the things that are said and the experiences and feelings that while there isn't a blood test or a CAT scan that can confirm narcissism and a person, the list of behaviors and things that are said are common throughout. And that's the way that we folks who have experienced it, have gathered together from our experiences and shared that. So that's what the book is about -- sharing my very intimate experiences with this type of a person. And I hope that people will recognize that this is only going to a very bad place. It just gets a lot worse over time. Yeah,

Steve Martorano 
That universal note...that universal profile of a toxic narcissist is startling. You have a great description in your book of meeting your husband's first wife, I suppose, our marriage crashed as well, of course, and you two were strangers to one another. All you had in common was this man. And when you began comparing notes, it didn't take very long at all for you to be actually of you startled at how similar your experience.

Erin Riley 
He led me to believe that she was crazy. And that's one of those common things that narcissists will say about their former partners, to the new partner, new supply. "Oh, my ex was crazy. I did everything I could to make her happy. I just couldn't make her happy." You know, she's all kinds of things and, really, they kind of drive you crazy with their little games and, and avoidance and cruelty is cheating. I could just go on and on. But the things that they do, but yes, when I realized that maybe perhaps she wasn't crazy. I contacted her after he left. And we spent four and a half hours on our first lunch together, just sharing stories and invalidating each other. It was really a very, very healing thing.

Steve Martorano 
It's interesting when you talk about, you know, narcissism being kind of there's a spectrum of it. And I agree with that. In writing the book, did you hope that perhaps people who are kind of toxic on the narcissism side can get something out of this? I guess what I'm saying is, can men read your book and get anything from it?

Erin Riley 
Well, first of all, I sure hope so. Not all narcissists are men. Not even close, not even close.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, but guys, get over all the ink for some reason. I mean, I get it. But I hear you, go ahead.

Erin Riley 
Let me speak just a little bit about I joined several different groups online on Facebook, private groups, about narcissistic abuse, and recovery, and also on Instagram, I would like to just say that I have an Instagram for the book that I have had 800 followers, and it's become quite a community for myself already. We all share together our experiences, and it's really very validating. My point was, and I thank you for leading me back there, Steve, is that there are plenty of men in these groups as well too, that talk about the women in their lives that have really flipped them upside down. So yes, maybe more so men? Yes, I would hope everybody could get something out of the book. But with regard to someone who is on a high level of narcissistic personality disorder or traits or is actually a diagnosed narcissist. They're not going to get much out of it. They're not going to want to read it. They're not going to want to look at themselves. That's their MO. That's how they live. Everything is projected externally. They get all, you know, this sort of suck life from other people, and they push people down to where their level is like they have deep self-loathing, you wouldn't see that on the outside, but their deep self-loathing. So if they bring you down, they come up with a little bit about themselves.

Steve Martorano 
In learning about not only from your book, in your experience, but others that I've spoken to on the...on the topic, I come away with it, thinking that on some level, narcissism is a survival mechanism, that these people weaponize normal self-love, which is not only normal, but healthy, and they weaponize it. And I'm thinking not to be overtly cruel, but because I think they think they have to behave this way. Did you observe that in your husband? Do you think he had no control over his behavior?

Erin Riley 
Very much so. I think that is really a great point you're making Steve because something early on in a narcissist causes what they call a narcissistic injury. Something is going to cause them to turn. And when I say "turn," they're going to turn to believe that everyone is the same. And we're all out to be number one. So we're all out to take advantage of each other. And so I'm gonna get you before you get me.

Steve Martorano 
It is about they're protecting themselves because they're so worried that they'll be taken down. They are easy to recognize, though, as you said, there's a very distinctive type. And they all share it. It's not even close. I mean, I don't think people spend much time until it's too late going "Gee, I don't understand why I didn't recognize that." There are some pretty brilliant red flags about this behavior. Let's talk about the way forward. And one of the things I think people who haven't experienced something like this wonder is why does it take 20 years to extricate yourself from this?

Erin Riley 
Well, narcissists, you know, have these needs. Codependent people and narcissists are dependent upon each other. So it will take 20 years because they don't want to lose that supply. It's a lot of work to get some new supply for you. If you need somebody else that you're dependent on for your, you know, to reflect yourself to. They also...it happens over time slowly. All narcissists start with something they call love bombing. They identify a target. They sweep you off your feet, there are trips and gifts and flowers and compliments, and they keep that negative behavior to themselves until they are sure they've got you wrapped up. However long that is. And that's wrapped up as married, living together,r financially, you know, join or whatever it is where you're actually it is you can't just get away. You can't just say, "I'm out of here." There's something you'll have to unravel. So it makes it harder. And it makes that person who has been targeted as the "new supply" feel as though like they're getting all this attention. They're feeling seen and this person is doing all these wonderful things for them not realizing that there's an ulterior motive or a motivation that is...that is not healthy.

Steve Martorano 
Aaron's book is called A Dark Force: 20 Years with a Covert Narcissist. It is nothing if not a cautionary tale. You just mentioned something that says, you know, we have this image of when you're married, two become one. And that's certainly true, but more in the sense of becoming partners. There are still two people. You look back and go the intermingling of every aspect of our relationship wound up hurting the hell out of me because he was doing it for different reasons than I was doing it. And your finances, once they get commingled really hurt you. We won't go into all the details. Would you advise people women anyway, or men, to keep some independence even though you're in this union, where no matter how in love you are? Do you agree?

Erin Riley 
Always. There are certainly going to...a narcissus is going to take control of everything they possibly can. My husband would rarely let me drive the car. He couldn't be out of control of the wheel of the car. If he had to sit in the passenger seat. He'd be holding on to you know the handle here and pumping the false brakes and panicking and shooting me dirty looks. Meanwhile, while he's at the wheel, he's road raging and driving up, you know, like on top of somebody and with his chin on the steering wheel at night because he can't see, but God forbid I, you know, look at him. He had to push the shopping cart. He had to manage the finances. He made all the decisions about where we went on vacation. And the problem was that I took that as love and caring, like, take care of me. Because my needs were, I'd been so independent my whole life, I wanted someone to take care of me. You know, my parents didn't take such great care of me. And that's a very important aspect of the book. If it doesn't start the day you meet a narcissist, it starts, you know, as you're being raised and programmed to accept certain types of behaviors, and have a certain self-image...a self-image of yourself. So yes, I was always very independent. And I wanted this man to, like, do it all for me. So I could feel loved and cared for, something I should have had internally from my family unit.

Steve Martorano 
So it sounds like you're saying that you take a certain responsibility for having been victimized by this. In other words, you were...you were, at a very early age, sort of conditioned to be that kind of a person, right?

Erin Riley 
That is correct. I am...in the book. I give myself 50% responsibility. There are two people who take two to tango, whatever, you know, I had just as much to unravel as he does. And I think I've done it. I think I've done a really good job, by my self, to connect with maybe who I really am inside without all of the clouds of my childhood and any other things I suffered through in my life. Everyone has the issues that they suffer, you know, within. But really, I find that there's a huge difference between people that have a very good strong family unit that helped them learn how to process traumas. You know, trauma happens to everybody. Bad experiences and losses happen to everyone. If you have someone as a child to help you process trauma, it's a lot healthier for you in the long run. Otherwise, you become like me, and you look externally for others to help you process your emotions.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, someone once told me it's never too late to have a happy childhood. And I kind of agree with that. So let's talk about how the, you know, the road back, it's in your book you're very clear about, and you've mentioned it here, but where have you gained the kind of support you think people need who wind up in these situations?

Erin Riley 
The most important thing to start with for me was learning. I had to learn I had so much to learn. I had to learn about narcissism. I had to learn about my codependency. I had to really examine my childhood and my family and how I felt about everything, you know, growing up and how I perceived my sort of like, place in the family. Then I needed to really examine my husband's family and his upbringing and the things he said to me. You know, it's so important to figure out how did these two damaged people come together and hurt each other so much? You know, like, he wanted me to heal all of his wounds, that narcissistic injury for him, but he didn't tell me that he made it seem like he was a prize. Same here, right? Same here. You know, I'm not out to hurt anybody, but I'm looking for someone to heal the hole in me, which I didn't feel love is a child, and I was loved bombed. So it was what I felt I need it. Yeah, but it's...

Steve Martorano 
It's a...it's a...it's a dance for two that goes...that goes on all the time. And it goes on in relationships that actually transcend marriage. It goes on to work relationships and and all kinds of relationships where we are presenting ourselves as something that we are not because that's the way we think we have to behave. Now, I know you recently went off to one of these -- there's no other way to describe it. It's a psychedelic ceremony around something called...

Erin Riley 
Ayahuasca.

Steve Martorano 
Ayahuasca

Erin Riley 
Or you could call it the "Mother." That's how it's referred to in the community is the Mother.

Steve Martorano 
Very briefly, it's a very ancient medicinal plant. It's been used in primitive societies in South America for millennia. And it is gaining a lot of traction among a lot of people. It's illegal. Of course, it's a drug. It's illegal. But it is being administered. You have to go out of the country to do it. Or you can do it here quietly. And it's we're on the cusp, I think of a kind of revolution in psychiatry. And I've talked to a psychiatrist about this. They agree that in the next decade or so, we're going to see a lot of drugs that were considered bad and recreational being opened up to examination to find out how well they work. Tell us about your involvement with the ceremony and what you got out of it.

Erin Riley 
Well, let me just start by speaking about learning. In learning about narcissism and codependency I did find that a lot of people have a theory that people with narcissism have an insular cortex deficit at birth. That they have less capacity for empathy toward others, and they can see that on a CAT scan. So that sort of led me to want to learn more about how to impact your brain and how to change your brain and your thinking. Because once you're into a pattern of thinking, whether that's untreatable depression, or alcoholism, ruminating thoughts, or just bad behaviors, chronic bad behaviors, it seems like people can't get out of them with all kinds of treatments. So I took it upon myself to learn as much as I could about this. And that's what led me then to the ayahuasca and learning about the default mode network of the brain. And that is six areas of your brain that are all interconnected and they're all responsible for your sense of self, and your ego, and whatnot. And they are...the little, I guess, you would call them the little synapses that are in your brain. And that sort of sends messages and electric signals around in your brain, while the little synapses are all just focused in that same little pattern and going over and over again. And the thing about psychedelics is it's the only thing that makes them go like this. Boom.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, it interrupts that path. 

Erin Riley 
Yes, it does. And they stay that way. They open up. It's almost as if a flower is waiting for rain, and it rains, and they go like this, and they stay that way. That is exactly the effect that psychedelic medicine and treatment can have on the brain to help you change your patterns that are destructive.

Steve Martorano 
So what do you take away from personally from...from your experience with...with this ceremony and the drug? Has it stayed with you? Will you do it again,

Erin Riley 
I will tell you. There were many great things. The ceremony is beautiful. There's so much beautiful Peruvian music. That is an aspect of it all. And they're singing to the medicine. You know, the medicine is inside of all the people that are sharing this experience, but they're singing in the medicine, and the songs are all different because they're trying to extract different emotions out of people. And people are having a myriad of different experiences. Some people that are in the room with me, and I have about 30 or 40 people in the room with me at the time are seeing visions and hallucinations, and people are falling apart and crying and all that. So there were three ceremonies. I would say that my biggest impact was the very last hour of my last ceremony. This is what happened. And I hope it's...I hope I can communicate it clearly. But I'm lying on my bed. The effects of the medicine are still in me. It was about two o'clock in the morning, and suddenly, I hugged myself. And I started rubbing my shoulders and going, "You're still here because I'm still here, no matter if they can't you, no one can get you. No matter how hard they try. They've been trying your whole life to get you then you're still here." And I know that sounds a little weird, but that's what stayed with me. That sense of me that maybe I didn't really have, I'm gonna cry. Don't cry on camera. That was really beautiful. That's the part that stayed. So it wasn't like I had an angel come and talk to me. But that little sense of knowing stuck with me the whole, you know, afterward and still today.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, I know you didn't want to present yourself as an advocate for this stuff, and I appreciate that. I didn't expect it. But we've done a couple of shows about psychedelics psychiatry, and because we want to become real clear for people who listen to the podcast that there are ways to explore this stuff. And there, there are ways to avoid this because it's, you got to be careful with some of this stuff. And listen, the establishment from big pharm...pharmaceuticals and the government are all sort of going, you know what, we're going to have to go back and redress some of this stuff, and see that it's safe, and then open it up for therapeutic use because I agree with you. I think there's great potential here. Erin, I want to wish you great luck with the book A Dark Force: 20 Years with a Covert Narcissist. I have raced through it. Overnight, you sent me a copy, and it's a rip-roaring read. It's not the feel-good book of the holiday season, but it is absolutely worth reading for a lot of reasons. Even if you don't have these problems, it's a compelling story. So congratulations, kiddo.

Erin Riley 
Thank you, Steve. I hope people find it also entertaining. I tried to make it light I added a lot of cool rock and roll stories...

Steve Martorano 
And you had a great career...

Erin Riley 
I wanted to make it funny. You know it's a heavy topic, but if you can't laugh about the hard things in life, then you know life is hard enough that you have to kind of find the light in things, and so I hope that there's a lot to laugh about and smile about and a rejoicing kind of in the end as well. 

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, read it only for the story about...about Keith Richards in the exploding...the exploding microwave or whatever. Was it a microwave? 

Erin Riley 
It was actually a stove. 

Steve Martorano 
That's right. You blew up the stove. Anyway. Great stuff, and good luck with the book. You know, when we get back to this topic of psychedelics, maybe we'll have you on our panel. We want to put together a panel. See if we can talk about it.

Erin Riley 
Happy to Steve. Thank you. And I just if you want to talk about psychedelics, let me just mention Michael Pollan. The author has a series on Netflix, so well worth watching and very clearly talks about all the different psychedelics, their history, and their impact. 

Steve Martorano 
So yeah, he's really...he's really one of the better ones is written and talked about this stuff. Thanks, Erin and we'll see you again soon. Have a great holiday going forward. We will...we'll talk to you soon.

Erin Riley 
Thank you, Steve. Take care.

Steve Martorano 
And you guys as well. Don't forget the deal is, yeah, we like it when you like us, and we love it when you follow us. But if you push the subscription button, you have our eternal gratitude. So we'll see you next time on the Behavioral Corner. Take care.

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