Ep. 131 Grace Shober & Maggie Hunt Podcast Transcript

Steve Martorano
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens.

The Behavioral Corner
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner; you're invited to hang with us as we've discussed the ways we live today, the choices we make, the things we do, and how they affect our health and wellbeing. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around a while. 

Steve Martorano
Hi, everybody, welcome again to the Behavioral Corner with me, Steve Martorano. The Behavioral Corner that's that podcasts I keep telling you is about everything. And it is. Because everything affects our behavioral health, our our spiritual or physical or mental well being. So we have a broad purview to cover stuff. It's all made possible with a great cooperation, financial and otherwise, with our partners in this endeavor Retreat Behavioral Health. And we have as we often do, going back to that, well, again, for expert advice and insight. Two of my favorite people will be joining us today, and a different capacity than you've seen Maggie Hunt, and Grace Shober the past couple of episodes here. You know, them, I hop, for their marvelous help across a wide range of topics. But they've been focusing in on show business because they're both you know, they're both sort of classic movie stars. Anyway, they review films for us to deal with the subjects of substance abuse, and mental health. They do a great job of that. But they were also the original guests I had on show we began three years ago, I think it was three years ago, maybe four called "Home for the Holidays." And that's what we're doing now. And they have graciously, I had to twist their arms, I shouldn't...graciously agreed to come back and do another Home for the Holidays. with us. Hi, ladies, first of all, how you doing? Thank you so much. Just heard me babble on incoherently about you two. I love you both. Here's the deal with Home for the Holidays., without dredging up all of the past. Maggie and Grace are veterans of the substance abuse arena, having lived it and done that and come out the other side in such spectacular fashion. I don't know where to begin. But the offer of just a great insight on some of the things we talked about with regard to something like going Home for the Holidays., either in early recovery, or active use. So that's what we're talking about. So hey, guys, you know what I was thinking about? I was thinking about maybe we could sort of roll this into the movie Maven thing as well. And I kept thinking of the standard holiday movie. It's not about Santa Claus, or Ebenezer Scrooge is usually the Home for the Holidays movie, where the family gathers for this, you know, usually Thanksgiving or maybe Christmas. And it's always the same thing. There's a crew that makes up the family and we can predict who they are. There's, there's a dad who's a little gruff, but lovable. There's the gay brother. There's always the gay brother, right? Or gay sister, she's there. She's either with her partner or not. There is the divorcee who's you know, life is in a wreck. She's popping pills between courses of meals. And then there's mom, who in invariably is oblivious to the dysfunction around her because it's the holidays. He's the last of the Mohicans when it comes to the holidays. Everybody sort of understands what the holidays are, they can be stressful, let's be honest. It's a difficult time, never more so than when you're dealing with something like substance abuse. So that's what we're going to focus in on. Let me begin by asking, is it even a good idea for somebody to go home for the holidays? A, if they're in early recovery, or if they're still using Mag? Is that a good idea to even show up?

Maggie Hunt
I was just thinking about my first Thanksgiving home because I got sober in July. So Thanksgiving was like the first holiday that I went home, and I was living out of town and people were like, "Are you sure it's okay?" And then ended up being fine. And I was fine. Everything was fine. But you know, I still was like, newly sober and people still probably were surprised to see you know, so there was just a lot of things. There's a lot of emotion. So, yes, I think that depending upon your situation, as long as it doesn't really affect your overall well-being Yes, I think it is a good thing.

Steve Martorano
But Grace, it's not...well you can tell me about your first experience, but I'm taking from what Maggie just said that it's not something that should be automatic in your head. In other words, "Oh, it's the holidays. I gotta go home." What kind of thought did you give your first trip back? 

Grace Shober
Well, just as Mag said, it's like super individualized. So like, some people can go home, some people can't. If you can, that's great. For me, my first holiday was Thanksgiving as well. I remember being awkward. I mean, you know, it was just like awkward because there you are sober before it didn't matter what you said or did. I can tell you right now, from my own personal experience, it was never a good idea to go home for the holidays under the influence. I always started a fight. There was always like a big problem, you know, the whole nine. It was a big scene. And there were times that I was uninvited also to you know, holidays. How dare they? But ya know, I think it's just individualized. You have to know and you have to have a plan if you go home.

Steve Martorano
Yeah, that's a couple of I do want to get into we've talked to in the past, but it's worth repeating. Again, the thing of that idea about having a plan, not least of which is having an escape. A way to get out when you have to get out. How many times were you told not to come home, Grace, was just stated, just understood, that you weren't coming home.

Grace Shober
Like just on a holiday? Or in general? 

Steve Martorano
No, no. Well, the holidays. 

Grace Shober
That might take a while. Um, for holiday? I can't even...I can't even remember, Steve.

Steve Martorano
Yeah. Mag, did you ever have an occasion where you got to the other Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas Eve? And they just said no, not. Not this year.

Maggie Hunt
I didn't I didn't. I don't know if, you know, maybe they were hopeful or what, but they never I was never uninvited.

Steve Martorano
Set against the backdrop...I can't even remember, is this our third or fourth Christmas with COVID still part of our lives? I can't remember. 

Grace Shober
Third.

Steve Martorano
The third, right? You know, there's something going on right now, where the generally the public has said, "Well, COVID here, but so what." But COVID was not unlike that as well. Should we have a gathering? You know, is it wise to all go in the same house and breathe the same air? So that's been a pervasive sense that we all have not so much lately when we're throwing caution to the wind. But that must have been palpable in families like yours, where Maggie says they didn't know. Stop you, Grace. Grace, you said your times you knew not to go, but it must be an almost a dread."Oh, what is it going to be like?" 

Grace Shober
Like in fairness, I also didn't want to go. Do you know what it means? Like, it's not like it broke my heart that I wasn't invited. It upset my parents more than it set me. But like, yeah, no, I just wanted to throw that out there, too. I wasn't super interested in going home, and I was using.

Steve Martorano
I forget how honest you guys are. It's just, it's amazing. Tell me about the family dynamic. I mean, in addition to what you know, someone in active use or in early recovery is worried about, which is themselves, right? They must also have really strong opinions and attitudes about the effect they're having on the family. What was it like in your house?

Maggie Hunt
Well, I just keep thinking about the dynamic of what it was like for me when I was, you know, like, when I was using and then what it was like when I got sober. And then kind of what it's like is like a stable sober person, like looking back. So I think that early on the alcohol use within my family was always seen as super jovial, fun, and whatever. And everybody's, you know, Irish. And that's what we do. And holidays are always like a thing that you get together. And that's what you do. And that no matter what your situation is like you show up right for those holidays. And so I think that when I...so going, I always wanted to go because I always knew there was going to be a party. So that's fun. And then, when I got sober, I think I was nervous, but then everybody else was nervous as well. So it brings about different emotions on both sides for the hosts and the family members and for myself. And so I think that it's just a lot of things at play. So I think it's important to, you know, weigh out the options before you make the decision.

Steve Martorano
At what point did it become okay, for everybody to sort of relax a little, and maybe even talk about your situation, or was it something that was just never spoken about?

Maggie Hunt
Oh, no. Well, so my mom's and my dad's family are very different and very separate. So my dad's family thinks that because I put down the drugs I can just drink. So even today, like even if I went to a party tomorrow, they're like, "What do you drinking?!?" and I'm like, 13 years sober and I'm just like, "Nothing." Like even today like it's not because I feel triggered or oh, I should I shouldn't drink or whatever. It's just like, I like to be in control of my life and myself and I don't want to, you know, feel any different or whatever. And so my dad's side of the family has never talked about it until one of their children or one of my cousins or somebody else's like then needed help, and then we talked about it for a little while, but then they still can put down the drugs and go back to drinking but down the drugs... and go back...that's just what they think.

Steve Martorano
Yeah, it's interesting, you know, some Russian writer a long time ago said (I hope I) get the quote right, "All happy families are alike." And I think I know what he meant by that he was talking about unhappy families. When you say that the families are different and that your dad's family keeps asking you whether you what a drink Are they denying your history? Are they just sort of oblivious to it, and it doesn't occur to them to be a little careful?

Maggie Hunt
Probably a little bit of both. So my mom's side of the family, I'm just generally closer with anyway, like, I know, you know, I just know them more on an intimate level, my parents were divorced. So like, I've always just been closer with them. So that helps I, you know, they came to visit me like when I was away, you know, in treatment, like they were amazing and super supportive. My dad's side of the family probably didn't know the struggle as severe as it was because they're like sweep things under the rug and don't talk about it. If you're like hungover from the day before. It's like, you're just a little ill. Do you know what I mean? Like, they don't want to talk about, you know, the night before that kind of stuff. I love all of them. However, they have their faults, for sure. So I think that they didn't really know the situation. But they also are that oblivious to the reality of what addiction is, which is crazy, because we've had, you know, my dad's death his brothers....like, there are so many things that have happened that I'm like, ?How can we still be here?" But...

Steve Martorano
Well, you know, it's, you know, defense mechanisms are amazing to look at. Yeah, and you know, I don't mean to say that they're ignorant, but you know, the expression, "Ignorance is bliss." 

Maggie Hunt
Yes. 

Steve Martorano
So the way they maintain kind of equilibrium, is that they just doesn't occur to them. There's an ongoing problem here and people have lost their lives just out of sight, out of mind, I guess. I admire people like that. We're what happened to our friend Grace? Did she disappear?

Grace Shober
Yeah. No, I'm here. I'm just listening to you guys.

Steve Martorano
I know what she's doing. She's combing your hair, isn't she.

Grace Shober
No, my hair is terrible today, Steve. However, I was about to leave to get my daughter, and I came down, and my husband left already to go get her. So now I'm just sitting here about to have peanut butter and jelly.

Steve Martorano
Okay, well, let's put the picture up this and watch you eat. I don't think we've seen you do that yet. Do you host any of these things now? Are you always guests during the holidays?

Grace Shober
Last year, I hosted Thanksgiving. This year, I'm doing New Year's. So yeah, I host.

Steve Martorano
Okay. And you've hosted as well, Mag?

Maggie Hunt
My family is so big that it's hard for all of us to get together at one point. Because my mom was one of five, my dad was one of eight. And then, like, they all have their children. And then they all have kids now. So it's much smaller, more like intimate. So I will host for my mom and my family. And then my mom's family is having on Saturday, like a big like, everybody's going to be there for the first time since before COVID. I'm pretty excited about that.

Steve Martorano
My background, because you said your family's large. My mother was one of 11. And my father was one of seven or nine I forget. I have 10,000 cousins.

Maggie Hunt
I know it's crazy. 

Steve Martorano
And on the holidays, as kids, one way or another. We got to see them all. The other thing I wanted to ask you guys is whether I want to get into this idea of a plan. I'm particularly interested in people in early recovery, where things are very fragile. We talked about a plan for going to something like a Thanksgiving or Christmas celebration, or New Year's. What kind of things should people have in mind in terms of their plan? Grace, what do they need to be prepared to do?

Grace Shober
Well, I think first and foremost, they need to be prepared to hear that they're not ready to go home from somebody that they like trust in the recovery community because we just have to like totally separate, like our heart from what reality is, you know, and so that has to be number one. They have to be prepared that maybe that's the answer you get. If you don't listen, you don't listen. But if you are told that, you know, they think you can go home. You need to have like a list of people that you can call if you're feeling just like in a bad way or something triggered you like going anything true or maybe like just going home or anything, in general, that was said to you. So having like an escape plan. We talked about that all the time. "Okay, I have to go because of you know, A,B, C, and D..." but have that planned out with somebody ahead of time, and just keep an open line of communication. So if you're home and you are having a hard time you need to call people.

Steve Martorano
Maggie have you ever had the occasion to call your sponsor when you're in one of these?

Maggie Hunt
Oh, I have been many, many places there have been times and it may not even like my sponsor, but like somebody where I've just like, you know, "I'm like I just got to take us I can hear, and I just gotta like, bring it back." You know, because, um, you know, when I think about the disease process of addiction as I think about the...I think about it as an individual person, and then at a group level. So like by myself, I'm always going to want to use it, but when I bring somebody else into it, it just gives the disease a little bit less power because it's two over one, right? So it's like one to one, and then it's like two over one. And so the more people that I include in that kind of, the less power it gives the disease and the more power it gives to me, right? Because we're powerless over our addiction. But that doesn't mean that we will lack power forever in a sense, right? Because you want to like pull people in so that you get that source of power, the same way as like a cell phone, right? Like the cell phone has to charge in order to get power. And so you gotta plug in the phone. And that's like your support network. So like your support network is helping to have this useful equipment.

Steve Martorano
You both said something that makes me think one of the big mistakes I guess someone would make it, particularly in early recovery, is to think that the holidays are a must. I must do this to prove something. That's probably a mistake, right?

Maggie Hunt
That's not one of my biggest struggles in life is like high expectations, like the high expectations that like, have always been placed there. You know that, like you have to be here, you have to show up no matter what, right? But like that isn't really like a real strong foundation because sometimes it's just not a good idea for you to show up.

Steve Martorano
Yeah, yeah. Grace, there's no greater event than the holidays, in terms of high expectations. One of my, you know, I'm such a Scrooge, one of my favorite expressions, I forget who said it years ago. "Well, the holidays have us by the throat again." I mean, they do they, you know, they grab you by the lapels. And they say, "Tis the season to be jolly." It's a total mistake. I mean, if you're not feeling good, you should acknowledge it, right?

Grace Shober
Yeah, well, and people need to remember that it's like a cliche, but I love all the cliche stuff is like. If you were using or drinking, you wouldn't probably be home for the holiday anyway. So just give it a little bit of time, you know, maybe not go the first year. And because meetings still have, like clubs in general, they have like meetings, like every hour on the hour on like, holidays, and things like that. So there won't be a time where you, like, have totally nothing to do. You know, or you're gonna be like, totally alone and not going home, which I think is a fear for a lot of people like, "Okay, well, I'm going to be by myself, and my whole family is doing this." You know, type thing. You know, keep an eye out to for like Thanksgiving recovery events, you know, recovery meetings. Which a plug Retreat is having one on Thanksgiving. And so yeah, just in general, just getting involved with the recovery community and knowing like, what your other options could be.

Steve Martorano
Yeah. Well, I did want to mention that because I wanted to hear from you guys on alternatives to going home for the holidays. I mean, again, the tyranny of the holidays is, "What do you mean, you're not going home? You got to go home." That there are alternatives for people that are in sensitive times in their life. And you just mentioned, Retreat is having one. How about at Grace House? Will there be people at the sober living facilities that you manage? Who that's their holiday, it's going to be there?

Grace Shober
Every year, there's a couple, you know. And so there's a couple of them every year we make sure that nobody's like by themselves, it never came to this where it's like, Oh, there's one person by themselves, I would just take them with my family saying, you know, or something like that. Like, I wouldn't just let them sit alone. But most of the time, I'll say two or three people, maybe it's because of how far they live or whatever the situation might be. And, they'll go to, you know, like the 521 Club and do like the Thanksgiving. They do like bingo. They do like all this other type of stuff. But yeah, there are people who can't go, but we wouldn't. I can't speak for everybody, but we personally wouldn't allow somebody to sit by themselves.

Steve Martorano
Yeah. Maggie, is it a good idea for someone going home for the holidays during the circumstances? To ask for certain things? In other words, that would be nice if you didn't serve any wine, or was that? Is that a good idea? or can that be a problem in the holiday context giving?

Maggie Hunt
Well, I think that's a case-by-case basis. I think that for myself like I always felt like I didn't want people to make their whole holiday sacrificed just because of me. So I wouldn't want them to do that. But then when I go there, and they're like,"Hide the alcohol! Put it away." Like I'm some criminal. Jesus, it's gonna be fine. I'm fine.

Steve Martorano
The issue about that, how, and when he asked you to be on the other side of the table there. How do people who are with someone in recovery speak to them? You say, family members will still just go, "Hey, what do you drinking?" Do you feel the need when they do that to explain to them why you don't want anything to drink? Or you just say, "No, I don't want anything to drink."

Maggie Hunt
I don't anymore. I even when I go to a restaurant, like sometimes, like we'll go to, you know, we'll go to a restaurant, and they'll be like, Oh, our wine tastings...and like, there's some friends that will like that immediately like to the waitress will be like, "It's okay. We don't drink. We're in recovery." I'm like, you don't have to explain yourself to them. Like, Grace has done that before. It's great. We've been together when like, that has happened. It's like, I just don't feel like you need to, like, make that as like a huge thing. Yeah, like, and people make such a big deal out of it in the beginning, but like, I know, athletes who don't drink because like, they don't want the sugars from like working, you know what I mean? Like, there are people who don't drink that, you know...

Steve Martorano
Just because they don't drink 

Maggie Hunt
Because they don't want to, and don't think it's a big deal.

Steve Martorano
You know, I am always struck by how awkward that is for some people when that comes up. It was never about drinking. So I never grew up with the notion that if someone said, when, you know, the bartender said, "What do you having?" If someone said nothing, it never occurred to me. It was for any other reason that he didn't want to drink. Now, we are so tuned in to the problem with alcoholism and substance abuse that people are hyper-conscious of that. And now I think when someone says that in almost any context, the other people go, "Uh oh, but they had a problem."

Grace Shober
You can't allow, like Maggie said, like that, probably like when I first got sober, like, I felt like I had to explain them to people. But now it's just like, "Nope. I don't drink."

Steve Martorano
Yep. I think we need to get further along that road, even though it may sound like indifference. But what it is, in fact, is accepting the person where they are. They don't want to drink.

Maggie Hunt
But I will say also, on the other hand, like my mom's side of the family, they just don't have alcohol things just because, like they just don't, it's just like, if it's a daytime event, they just like don't want to drink, right? And uncomplicated, this whole thing. So it's almost like the kind of like a catch 22 You know what I mean? So it's like, because if you do have it, and then the person is not like in a state because like Grace and I have been sober a long time, like what you know, but like, you know, in the beginning, you know, like some people that might give, you know, give them the opportunity too. So you got to be careful.

Steve Martorano
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think some people are put off by or feel they're being judged by others who don't want drinks? Like, I'm not drinking? Do you think sometimes they go "Oh, what does that make you a better person than me?" Does that go on? Do you think that goes on, Grace?

Grace Shober
I don't really think that goes on. I like, again, like you wouldn't really know. I think probably what happens is when you say you don't drink, people most likely think it's because they like or an alcoholic. You know, not for any other reason. But I don't think that that's the case. I don't know, Maggie. What do you think?

Maggie Hunt
Yeah, I don't know. When I, I think that. Like, I have a friend who goes to my gym, and she doesn't drink. And I'm like, "But why?" You know, like, because in my mind, I just like think that that's what everybody does. But that's not true.

Grace Shober
Oh, I thought you were saying...maybe I misunderstood because I agree with that. But, like, because my brother-in-law doesn't drink either. I'm like, "What?" Like, it just doesn't make sense. I thought you meant like, Do other people look at us when we say we're not drinking and be like, "Oh, they think they're better than us."

Maggie Hunt
Yeah, I don't think so.

Steve Martorano
No, no, no, I'm talking about people who, in general, who don't drink or who drink, and then someone says they're not drinking, whether or not they don't automatically go, "Well, yeah. What does that make you a better person than me?"

Maggie Hunt
Yeah, I think so. I think sometimes, I think sometimes, definitely.

Steve Martorano
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Your children...first of all, how many...how many of you have Grace? 

Grace Shober
Three.

Steve Martorano
Three. And Mag, you have what, three? 

Maggie Hunt
Three.

Steve Martorano
And they're young. Right?

Maggie Hunt
Not anymore, I feel like.

Steve Martorano
Well, come on? How old are your kids?

Grace Shober
I have a 14-year-old, an almost 13-year-old and a seven-year-old. 

Maggie Hunt
Eleven, six, and seven. 

Steve Martorano
Yeah. Well, okay. When I say they're young, my kids have kids. (That's) where I'm coming from on this? I just wonder how much they know about your background.

Grace Shober
My kids know, I mean, Harper wasn't...he never saw me using, which is awesome. But the boys like, they know what it's about. It's not like...

Steve Martorano
They don't define you that way? 

Grace Shober
No, and it's not like a shameful thing. It's like my kids are great with it.

Maggie Hunt
Yeah, I'm pretty open and honest with my ...especially with Luke for sure. You know, because they're in the car when I get these panic calls, you know, and usually when I get off the phone with them, as I explained it, it's like a lesson, you know, like, I'm like, "This is a person who, you know, hurt their children and they don't want to talk to them." You know, like I tell them the whole thing.

Steve Martorano
It's one of those ironic facts about being in a long-term successful recovery. That's kind of interesting. You two guys came from pretty dark places to get here. But look where you are. And I only say this because I believe it. But your kids are growing up in a remarkable context. I mean, they are being exposed to things that are important to be exposed to. So guarantee that they'll turn out they'll...turn out the way they're gonna turn out. But they do have, because of your experience, they have access to this, I can't help but think they don't wind up more empathetic people because of what you to do and expose them to. I think it's fantastic. I thank you guys so much. I think it's really important that people hear from folks like you, particularly at this time of the year, which is difficult. It is very...it's great. It's the most wonderful time of the year, even though when I hear that song, my teeth clench immediately. But you know, it should be, and if it's tough for you, wherever you are, wherever you're at, you're not alone. Make sure you have the support that these guys are talking about. And you have a plan because the goal is to reintegrate yourself back into life and your family. So Happy Holidays, ladies. Always a pleasure. And I guess we'll give you some time off before we get back to the Movie Maven film reviews because they're my favorite things here on the Behavioral Corner.

Maggie Hunt
Did we decide what the next one is that we're doing?

Steve Martorano
You guys got to come up with something. I mean, you know, I know some films from the 40s that you've never heard of. But I think we should do something more contemporary. There are lots of them out there. We'll get around. Maggie Hunt, Grace Shover from Retreat Behavioral Health. Thanks so much for joining us on the Corner. You as well. We'll have our holidays, you guys. I'll be talking to you before too much longer. Don't forget, don't forget the subscription button. Hit the damn subscription button even if you're lying about it. Just hit the button. It doesn't cost you anything. Thanks, guys. We'll see you soon.

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