Lauren Winans is the Chief Executive Officer and Principal HR Consultant for Next Level Benefits, an HR consulting practice offering clients access to HR professionals for both short-term and long-term projects. With 20 years of human resources and employee benefits experience, Winans possesses a deep expertise of HR best practices and what resonates with employees. She founded Next Level Benefits in 2019, offering HR teams access to former corporate HR professionals on-demand when they need them most.

Steve Martorano 
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens.

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner. You're invited to hang with us as we discuss how we live today, the choices we make, what we do, and how they affect our health and well-being. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around for a while.

Steve Martorano 
Hi, everybody, it's me again, Steve Martorano. your hosting guide here on the Corner, the Behavioral Corner. We call this a podcast about everything because everything winds up affecting our behavior and health. It's all made possible by our underwriting partners retreat Behavioral Health, you'll find out more about them. Later on, October is National Mental Health Awareness Month. We've always taken a look at mental health throughout the year, but particular focus on the issue at this point in time, and in a specific area as well. We're going to take a look at mental illness and how it impacts the workplace, both the employee and the employer, point of view our guest to that end is Laura Winans, right, Winans?

Lauren Winans 
Yep, Lauren Winans

Steve Martorano 
Lauren Winans. She is the CEO of Next Level Benefits. They are an HR consulting and human resources consulting company, Laura is the founder of Next Level with 20 years now experience in this she has a broad range of experience in the the issue of employers and what they need to do and employee rights. And we're going to take a look at how those things intersect in the workplace a very problematic thing. Lauren, thanks for joining us. I know that was long-winded. You know, I'm guessing and I mentioned this before we started recording that one of the reasons I think people who need to get mental health treatment are hesitant to do so for fear of losing their jobs. Do you agree or disagree with that?

Lauren Winans 
I agree with that, you know, I do think that there are, you know, employees that run up against a couple of different roadblocks to care. I think one of them is job loss, and I think another might just be the stigma around mental health, I know that we have made some significant strides to get to a place where there's less of a stigma, but still, there are people out there who are you know, just don't want people to think differently of them when they do seek help. So I think it's a combination of things. But absolutely, job loss definitely plays a factor.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, the the insurance issue would be the paramount fear of losing that even if you wanted to get treatment. But you're right, the stigma still attaches no matter how much education goes on, people still stop particularly in the workplace situation, and have a certain sympathy with a guy who's hiring, having to make a decision about not so much well, can this person do the job? So we're gonna get into all of that, can we begin, Lauren, though with one of the more common mental health disorders that show up in the workplace?

Lauren Winans 
So first off, their employees don't necessarily have to disclose any type of mental health condition that they may have, you know, but those that do end up getting revealed, either through an employee who is willing to share that information, or maybe even just through different situations that might arise, employee relations conversations, you know, maybe even some leaves of absence, I think the most common are typically, you know, depression, you know, some sort of chronic mental illness that might be hereditary and within their families. There's also substance abuse and a variety of different chronic conditions that actually have a mental health component to them. One that a lot of people don't think about is, just, for example, thinking of Crohn's disease. Crohn's disease is a really difficult digestive gastroenterology issue. But it often comes with some mental health challenges because of the social anxiety that comes with having that condition and being among family, friends, and in public. And so there's there's lots of different ways it can present itself. But I would say the most common that employers are often privy to and or seeing are directly related to depression and specific chronic conditions.

Steve Martorano 
Let's back up to that issue of what a potential employee can withhold from in a job interview you say they're not compelled to say anything about their health.

Lauren Winans 
I mean, you don't you're not required to it's it's your health condition. It can be as private as you would like it to be. It can be as public as you would like it to be. It's important that you ensure that you are keeping true to yourself during an interview, but you know who you are and how you perform your job is not necessarily your condition or your diagnosis. And I think it's very important that employees don't necessarily feel compelled to share that information if they're not ready to share it. So there is no requirement around you to disclose any sort of mental health condition or issue during an interview process or even post-interview once you're already employed and with an employer.

Steve Martorano 
On the other side of that equation, what governs the kinds of questions a potential employer can ask someone about their mental health?

Lauren Winans 
That's a good question. And, you know, I think there is such a fine line, particularly on the employer side. So really, you know, employers are not necessarily really, you know, really allowed to ask any medical questions or, you know, pose any specific scenarios, to an employee to see what their answers might be with the intention of kind of identifying some sort of medical history. So it's really important for an employer to respect that privacy and any sort of medical information that they do end up obtaining, not through a line of questioning, but just simply through a conversation that the employee wishes to disclose to them, they must be keeping that completely confidential. There is, you know, a lot of different laws out there, you know, specifically around privacy, that really prevent employers from asking specific questions. And then, of course, once they know, some type of, you know, medical condition information to not be spreading that amongst the organization. So it's, it's more regulated on the employer side, clearly than it would be on the employee side.

Steve Martorano 
Are employers governed by, in, the situation of mental health disorders, are they guided by the law, the Americans with Disabilities Act?

Lauren Winans 
Yep, ADA and also HIPAA. You know, it's very important that employers not only respect the privacy of their employees, as it relates to mental health and or other medical conditions, but it's also important that employers follow the letter of the law and are compliant, as it relates to those types of laws. The Americans with Disabilities Act, you know, the ADEA, essentially, is helping to, you know, give some guidelines and regulations as it relates to what type of accommodations need to be provided within the workplace, you know, what type of conditions do qualify as a disability, and what type of protections are in place for employees, and so employers if they don't...if you don't know about ADA, you definitely need to read up, because it's incredibly important to be compliant with ADA requirements. And employees should also be aware of what their rights are. And I think it's important to better understand, you know, that your mental health is private until you decide to disclose it. And if you disclose it, and you request accommodations accordingly, your employer is required to take those accommodation requests seriously, and ultimately help you identify some solutions in the workplace.

Steve Martorano 
Most of us think of those accommodations that are mandated by law as being a kind of physical nature, someone who can't get up steps and doesn't move around very well, has to be accommodated for that. It's much different when the disability is a mental disorder. What kind of accommodations would suppose, you know, I go in, I have a history of depression in I don't know whether I did this upfront, but I certainly have had a period of time when I've missed work. Not so much that I think I couldn't do the job, but I have missed work. And I this becomes apparent to my employer, what kind of accommodations are the employer required to make in a situation like that?

Lauren Winans 
Yeah, you know, I think it often starts you know, the way these situations kind of evolve in in the best case scenario is an employer is able to kind of approach the employee and just check in you know, Hey, how are you doing? You know, I have noticed XYZ. And, you know, here are some resources for you if you'd like to leverage them, you know, these resources could be things like an EAP program, it could be information about how to connect with a member of the HR team to have a more confidential conversation. It could be, you know, essentially, you know, discussing if there are any things that the employer can be proactively doing to kind of help you perform at a higher level, you know, within the workplace. If you as an employee, you know, engage in that conversation, and you can get to a place where, yeah, you know, what, maybe I need to file for FMLA. So that, you know, occasionally when I need some additional personal time during the week, I can take some unpaid time off. It might be something as simple as that. It might also be, you know, hey, I, you know, suffer from depression and some anxiety issues. And it heightens itself around certain times a year around the holidays, when I'm thinking a lot about family members that I've lost, you know, I am going to need to work part-time through the month of December, are you able to accommodate that? So it kind of depends upon the situation. But I think it's important to note that when an employee is requesting an accommodation related to a condition and medical condition or health condition that they have, the employer must look at the accommodation to determine if is it reasonable for us to be able to accommodate this individual's request. And or does it put undue hardship on our business in order to, you know, to accommodate? So if an employee is asking to maybe work a little fewer hours over the course of, you know, four weeks of a year, that's not undue hardship. So that would mean that, you know, that is a request that can be made, and can also be fulfilled? You know, now, if an employee were to say, hey, you know, what I, you know, my depression and anxiety is, is it unpredictable? And there might be times of the year when I'm going to need to take several weeks off at a time. You know, I think, yeah, the employer's response to that is going to ultimately be "Well, hey, you can file for FMLA

Steve Martorano 
FMLA?

Lauren Winans 
FMLA - family medical leave, okay. You can apply for family medical leave to take care of your own serious medical health condition, or that of a family member, but in its 12 weeks of protected leave, most employers in the country are subject to federal law, not all, but most. And so, you know, the employer might say, "Hey, you got these 12 weeks you can use but beyond that, we can't accommodate you just deciding that next week, you're not going to be here." So there has to be a little bit of given taken a little bit of acknowledgment that there are reasonable requests, and then there are not so reasonable requests, and you kind of have to meet in the middle and really flesh that out on an individual basis. And that's ultimately what the ADA act is, that's what it's ultimately saying is, each employee is an individual, and you must treat each situation on an individual basis and determine if you can make an accommodation for an employee based upon what issues they might have.

Steve Martorano 
In the instance where there is a dispute over whether that is doable, who decides how to proceed?

Lauren Winans 
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, it depends upon how, you know, how far, the challenge or the complaint may go. You know, sometimes there is, you know, an EEOC charge. So the EEOC may need to get involved in the situation mainland itself in a court of law. So there might be, you know, some attorneys that are kind of battling through that, you know, it also just might get to a place where, you know, it's escalated itself to executive leadership and or a board of directors, and they weigh in, but I would say nine times out of 10 most of these issues can be resolved between HR teams, you know, the direct supervisor of the employee and the employee they can meet together and figure this thing out.

Steve Martorano 
Your consultancy next-level benefits do you deal exclusively with employers or do you also work with people just looking for work?

Lauren Winans 
So we mainly work with employers, our clients are typically HR teams and our business owners across the country need some HR expertise. That's essentially what we sell. Our team is made up of HR professionals with decades of experience, so we tend to work directly with HR teams to help them do good HR and tackle different projects in the HR field. But we often interact with a lot of different employees as part of the different projects that we do. So there's lots of feedback and information that we obtained. But, you know, I prior to doing all of this consulting work, I was also working for many employers in an HR capacity. So I've had a lot of exposure to this topic, I've managed leaves of absence, I have granted accommodations. And, you know, I think most of the people on my team have also been in that situation. So we kind of have a unique perspective where we've lived it. And now we can also consult on it. And so it's a, it's a good place to be because I have seen such great strides in this area, you know, particularly over the last handful of years. But naturally, you know, over the last 20-25 years, we've come a long way, in terms of the accommodations that employers can fulfill and are more willing to fulfill than they probably happen.

Steve Martorano 
You find that vacation in corporate America. They're, they're looking to accommodate?

Lauren Winans 
I do, I do, and it could just be my perspective. But you know, the the interactions that I've had, particularly with my past employers, as well as my current clients are that they are willing to go through this interactive process with each individual who may request an accommodation. Now, everyone has their own line, you know, to draw on the sand on what's reasonable and what's unreasonable. But what I am seeing is there is more of an appetite, mainly probably because of compliance issues, wanting to be compliant. But there's definitely more of an appetite to have these conversations and make an attempt to accommodate an employee in a way that is meaningful to them.

Steve Martorano 
What happens when someone does lose their job as a result of a mental illness? We're, I mean, first of all, is that is it? Is it just straight ahead the same as any other situation? If the job is not getting done, the employer? I guess, doesn't necessarily need a reason you're not doing the job. But are there? Are there barriers to someone being terminated? Because they have a mental illness?

Lauren Winans 
Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, if it's affecting performance significantly enough, and an employer can document that as such, like, say, for example, you know, an employee is not showing up on time, it's impacting the team that he works on, you know, maybe he's even working in a distribution center or running some sort of, you know, machinery or a piece of equipment. And there's, you know, a safety issue, or there's danger involved. There are lots of different things that an employer can document as, hey, this is impacting performance. And for this, and this alone, this person needs to be fired, this person needs to be terminated needs to be separated. But in the case where there aren't really clear performance issues, and an employee believes they are terminated because their employer knows that they have a mental health issue, that could be seen as retaliation. Okay. And so that's got it, you got to really walk a fine line. Yeah.

Steve Martorano 
There are situations with regard to mental disorders in the workplace in life, but in the workplace, where the disorder can be manifest, you can see it, it may, to some extent, affect the employee's work, but in a larger sense, it's a disruption of the workplace. I'm thinking specifically of bipolar disorder, where there are manic episodes, that the person's personality can change dramatically. If someone is fired in a situation like that. Do they have cause to? If they first they'd have to demonstrate that it was because of their buyback bipolar disorder that they were fired.

Lauren Winans 
Correct? That that is really the burden of proof?

Steve Martorano 
Is that possible? Is that even possible to prove?

Lauren Winans 
I mean, I think it can be you know, I think depending upon the situation, you might be able as an employee to clearly articulate Hey, here, here's what happened that day. Here's what happened that week. Here's what happened, whatever. And, you know, I wasn't pulled aside I wasn't nothing, you know, was discussed with me, I did not have a performance improvement plan that I needed to go through. I wasn't put on a warning. I wasn't given any, you know, anything like that. I was immediately fired without any explanation

Steve Martorano 
for a second and tell me about that process. In other words, it's not a summary sort of thing. Come in, you're gone. There is a process employers have to go through. Can you take us through that?

Lauren Winans 
Yeah, so So best practices are, you know, unless an employee is violating company policy, or, obviously, and clearly putting other employees at risk. So that aside, you know, typically the best practices, you know, to really kind of give an employee feedback and guidance that they can then make behavioral changes to how they're acting within the workplace before you actually terminate them. It's basically Okay, let's call to their attention that they've made a mistake and that they can't be doing this anymore, and give them an opportunity to bounce back from from whatever occurred. And usually, it's a 30-day window, you know, it's like, Hey, here's the situation, we can't have you doing that anymore. Here's what we want to see from you. And we're going to be monitoring that over the next 30 days, if you can't fulfill that within the next 30 days, we're going to need to fire you. And so that was that's more of a best practice. But it doesn't necessarily have to go down that way. Particularly if, let's say in this case of a bipolar individual, if they are putting other employees in the workplace at a safety risk, or endanger, in some way, shape, or form, an employer doesn't have to wait 30 days to fire that individual. It could be immediate. And it's really Yeah. Does the employee have recourse? They probably do. But would they win in a court of law, more than likely that employer is going to be able to fully articulate and be prepared to say, hey, you know, we don't care what their condition is? But here's what happened.

Steve Martorano 
Here's the results of it. Yeah. You know, lots of companies have employee assistance programs, particularly with regard to substance abuse. alcohol, substance abuse, in particular, and what level of support, in general, are employers required to at least offer to an employee they see having problems.

Lauren Winans 
So there's not a ton out there in terms of like a federal requirement necessarily, but what a lot of employers do is they do offer these employee assistance programs, they're very minimal in terms of cost to the employer, but they can provide a lot of impact to an employee. And then also, anytime you're offering, you know, health insurance, medical insurance, you are required to be providing at least a baseline minimal essential coverage, which does include mental health benefits, health services. So if you're an employer that's offering health insurance, you at least need to be covering mental health services, it's in some way, shape, or form. And then the EAP program is really something that could be for all employees, even those that are not enrolled on a health care plan, that they have access to licensed professionals that can help them through different mental health challenges that they're having are either one of those requirements. I mean, it's not a requirement to offer an EAP program. But I would say most employers do. It's not it is a requirement that if you offer health insurance, mental health benefits are included because that's just part of the Affordable Care Act, but you don't necessarily have to be offering benefits. So there are some loopholes in this logic. But ultimately, if, you know, I think employers who are coming from a good place and want to do right by their employees, you know, regardless of what they have to do, they will do what they need to do to kind of help people not only help to keep their workplace intact and their culture, one that people actually want to be there and work there, but also kind of helping employees if they are struggling, you know, that that's kind of you know, the purpose of an HR team right is really kind of help employees as they need help and really kind of be facilitating that, that care that that assistance between the employer and the employee.

Steve Martorano  
We're speaking with Laura Winans and she is the CEO and principal HR consulted for the company she found that Next-Level Benefits I'm so I guess there was a time when HR was a pretty straightforward proposition more science than art, checked a lot of boxes, sent it off to the boss and said well, where the interview went well and are endowed to go at your end and we move on. I think now it's probably still that. But there's a little bit of art here. Sometimes one wonders isn't intended to dance around, asking certain. We know they can ask certain questions, but I hate to use the word conceal, but sort of conceal the real reason someone doesn't get a job. How do we how do we make sure that's not going on? Is there any way of knowing whether this is an honest transaction that's going on here? I mean, by the way, on both sides because the person can come in and what and I'm not going to tell you about my mental health disorder, I'm not going to tell you about my meds, or any of that stuff, and the HR person has to have an antenna up going, you know, what kind of a potential employee is this? Once you start down the road? of asking or getting to that nub question, then you've got a whole other set of problems. So how's that dance performed? equitably?

Lauren Winans 
You know, it's? That's a really great question. Because I, I don't believe that there it can be, you know, I think an employee naturally is going to come into an interview process withholding certain information, right? Well, let's face forward, right? I mean, exactly. And vice versa, but also the employer is, is, you know, they know what their risks are, they know what the liability looks like, when they say the wrong thing during an interview, or when they, you know, hire someone who may end up being more of a problem for them, then then it is a benefit to have them in the business. So I don't know if it'll ever be an equitable exchange, I think that when you have both parties that ultimately are trying to protect themselves in the exchange, you're not necessarily always gonna get 100% of the truth of, you know, in the transaction, but I do.

Steve Martorano 
Know, I'm sorry, go ahead. Now, so saying, you know, but,

Lauren Winans 
but I do think that there are ways and there are companies that do make an attempt to kind of tear down some of those barriers, and some of those walls to have a more, you know, interactive, you know, informal exchange, where they're very clear about what type of person they're looking for, to work. And, you know, in the company, they're very clear about what their culture is like. And, you know, I think employees have to be consumers, when they're interviewing to, you know, hey, I know what my condition is. If I get anxiety in small spaces, I'm not going to go into mining, like, I'm not gonna go into the ground and do this job. So I think there's, you know, it's until we get to a place where, you know, there, there isn't so much risk on the employer side for making a poor choice and a higher and there isn't so much stigma on the employee side for sharing who they are, and maybe what conditions they might have until we get to a place where both parties feel completely comfortable. I don't think there's an equitable exchange.

Steve Martorano 
And that, well, it's an honest answer, for sure. And the condition you just described of equilibrium, is the only way that happens is with better mental health care.

Lauren Winans 
We have a challenge there. And we've

Steve Martorano 
got we've got we've got a mental health crisis. And, you know, we're, we're, we're running just to, you know, stay in place. But that process, the whole the whole, I'm trying to get a job. I'll be I'll ask you another question issue, to be brutally honest. And I'm sure you will be as an as a potential employee, I'm coming in for my interview. Do you know, do I at some point, just, by the way, I have a history of whatever depression, bipolar doesn't that sort of, that's sort of a knock them out of the job right away because the person taking the interview is not going to have any time to determine in that exchange, whether this is debilitating or would involve them not being able to do the job. So it's there's an incentive, almost an automatic incentive on the part of the employee to not say anything?

Lauren Winans 
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would agree, I would agree that there isn't a lot of upside for the employee, other than if the employee wants to be working at a place where they're supported. And they can be their full selves every single day, and not have to hide maybe something that they just struggle or deal with. So I would say, yeah, it's not, it's not necessarily going to be advantageous to you as an employee to bring it forward. But if you want to ensure that you're working at the right place, you're working for the right people, and that you can work at this company, this organization for the long haul, saying that sort of thing and seeing what type of response you get isn't the worst thing in the world. It's gonna help you kind of eliminate you know, some of these these these positions, these options, these companies, and you kind of know pretty quickly whether or not you want to work for them. So it's it's a double-edged sword, but no, I don't there isn't a lot of upside to it.

Steve Martorano 
And I guess it's also self-evident that If you do have a mental disorder, while you may not put it at the top of the resume if you get the job and your disorder begins to affect you, you then should be the first person to say, hey, look, I've suffered from this, would you agree that that's the way you should approach it?

Lauren Winans 
I agree, you definitely, if you feel that your condition is impacting your performance or your attendance in any way, it is beneficial to disclose at least some, you know, level of insight into what your condition may be, you don't even have to tell it like say the actual name. But just by saying, I have a condition that prevents me from being 100% Every single day, just by disclosing that, that is helpful because now the employer is on notice that you are dealing with something

Steve Martorano 
and there are some rights and there are some rights accrue, if you're upfront about it. Yeah, that's, that's great. That's great, great advice. Lauren, there's a whole lot more about this, it's such a real-world problem, the world is changing, as we know. So swiftly, nowhere more so than in the workplace. The pandemic disrupted everything we thought we knew about work, artificial intelligence is going to shake up the situation, and HR is going to become, I guess, more difficult, and more important going forward than ever.

Lauren Winans 
I agree completely. I mean, there's just, there's, there's so many different ways that work is going to continue to change, and the workplace is going to continue to change. And I think HR professionals, and, you know, the employers that they serve are in a really, you know, interesting predicament, they're going to not only need to continue to maintain their bottom lines, but they're also going to need to continue to compete for talent. And it's going to be harder and harder to do that, especially as AI is going to be in the mix. And we're going to naturally see a lot of changes in you know, society, it's going to be a wild ride. So I'm excited to be an HR consultant. It's a good time for us.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, this leaves us with this last thing, there was a time perhaps not so very long ago, when a mental health disorder of any sort. Just shut the door on you getting into a situation in the workplace that you might, that you might desire, that that is changing. In your view.

Lauren Winans 
It is it is I mean, us having this conversation today is something that wouldn't have happened even maybe 5, 7, 8 years ago. So the fact that we're able to have this conversation and the fact that, you know, employers are more willing than ever to find ways to assist employees with their mental health is I mean, we're lightyears away from where we used to be. So yes, I do see steps in the right direction, strides that are being taken that are going to, you know, ultimately impact the workplace, you know, more widely than it already has been. But it's going to take some time, like like, like everything else.

Steve Martorano 
Laura Winans, thank you so much CEO. Next Level benefits. We'll have a link for her. So if you want more information about our company, you can contact us. And we thank you for your time here on the Corner.

Lauren Winans 
Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Steve Martorano 
And we thank you all as well. Don't forget to like us and follow critique us whatever you do, we're, we're wherever you find your podcast, behavioral corner. See you next time. Bye bye.

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